HL Deb 02 May 1978 vol 391 cc2-5

2.37 p.m.

Lord AMULREE

My Lord>, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what arrangements are being made to continue the supply of vaccines and sera to the National Health Service when the laboratories of the Lister Institute at Elstree close as reported in The Times of 19th April.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, the Lister Institute is currently one of three major enterprises which manufacture in the United Kingdom vaccines and sera for use in the National Health Service. Many of the products supplied by the Lister Institute are also supplied by one or both of the other manufacturers. Discussions have already taken place with these other manufacturers with a view to arranging for them to increase production or to take on production of the products which the National Health Service obtains from the Lister Institute. My Department is also examining the possibility of obtaining supplies from other sources of those vaccines which are used only in small quantities. I can assure your Lordships that the Government are pursuing these initiatives with vigour and will take all steps necessary to ensure continuity of supply.

Lord AMULREE

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for that quite helpful reply and to ask a minor supplementary question. Can he be quite sure that the supplies of these vaccines et cetera will not be cut down or reduced because of some economy drive which may take place in the foreseeable future?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I can give that assurance because there are considerable stocks of the various vaccines and sera. I explained to your Lordships that there are two other firms—namely, the Wellcome Foundation and Evans Biologicals Limited—who also manufacture these particular vaccines and sera, and there are quite considerable stocks of some of them. In the case of one particular vaccine there are stocks which will last for between five and 10 years. We are not expecting any difficulty whatsoever.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, will my noble friend say what proposals the Government have for continuing the existence of the Lister Institute? The Institute had a building at the bottom of Chelsea Bridge Road, which I understand has now been closed down, and with the present threat to the further part of the Lister Institute at Elstree would it not appear that the whole of the Lister Institute may go and that the name of one of the most distinguished people of the last century in the medical field will disappear from this country in terms of an institute? Is it not as serious as if, in France, the Pasteur Institute were to disappear?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I do not think there can be any comparisons between the two institutions. My understanding of the situation is that the Government have no plans for financially assisting the Lister Institute. It applied to the Government for a grant of something like £500.000, but on inquiry it was found that £500,000 would not be nearly enough; something like £4 million would be necessary to enable it to continue with the manufacture of vaccines and sera. We must bear in mind that the only part of the Lister Institute which is to be closed is that dealing with vaccines and sera. The Lister Institute, which over a long period of time has rendered magnificent service not only to this country but to the rest of the world, is really a biomedical research body and that side of it will not be touched at all.

Lord AMULREE

My Lords, I would reiterate my supplementary question. I wanted to be quite sure that the amount of money which is going to be available to be spent on the vaccines and sera by the Government, or by the noble Lord's Department, will not be cut down by any new drive for economy.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, it is certainly not my understanding that the Government intend to do anything of the kind.

Lord HAWKE

My Lords, if the existing Lister Institute is closing and cannot make a profit from producing these drugs, how do the Government expect to be able to get them from other firms at the same price?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, with very great respect, that is not really a matter for the Government at all. Prices are fixed in open competition and they are not fixed by the National Health Service. We put out tenders for certain types of drugs in bulk purchase; the firms who manufacture them tender, and we accept the most appropriate tender.

Lord WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, my noble friend said that the Lister Institute will continue in existence, but is it not true that the actual physical basis of the Lister Institute has now closed down, that the Lister Institute for Medical Research which was in Chelsea Bridge Road no longer exists? Does he, therefore, mean that the so-called Lister Institute will merely be a body for making relatively small grants for research work around the country, and not a true medical research institute?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, my understanding is that when part of the Lister Institute closed at Chelsea it moved to Elstree, and the Lister Institute is now in Elstree. The part that was in Chelsea is up for sale. At the moment nobody has offered to buy it. Its future and planning is a matter of discussion between the Lister Institute and the local authority. But the Lister Institute will continue at Elstree the biochemical research which it has been undertaking as an institute for a good many years.