CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF: PEKING SPEECH (Hansard, 2 May 1978)

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given Private Notice, namely:

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)
My Lords, the remarks of the Chief of the Defence Staff, Sir Neil Cameron, were made in an impromptu reply to a speech of welcome by the Commander of the Chinese Sixth Tank Division, whose units he was visiting, He was not advocating any form of military alliance between this country and China, nor did he say, or imply, that the Soviet Union had the intention of attacking either China or the Western Alliance. He did, however, draw attention to the growing strength of the Soviet tank armies.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, may I ask the Minister this: Is it not the case that it is an important object of our foreign policy to secure détente and disarmament and that the British Government have this month put forward to the United Nations Assembly radical proposals to that effect?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, yes, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, that détente is our aim. That is our policy. We are committed to having talks with the Soviet Union. I hope that there will be a successful outcome.

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, I wonder whether the Leader of the House will tell your Lordships whether he thinks that the Soviet Union will be surprised to learn that Britain, and the other NATO countries, generally, are seriously concerned at the continuing and increasing build-up of Soviet forces in Europe, and whether they will be astonished to learn that we are seeking to make plans to defend ourselves? Will he be careful not to allow some members on the extreme Left of his Party—I exclude the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, who is a law unto himself—to undermine, or seek to undermine, the confidence which all of us feel in Sir Neil Cameron and the Chiefs of Staff?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I am anxious that this should not be built up into some great crisis story. I believe that the Soviet Union is now well aware of our policy. However, at the same time I think that we are committed to détente and we want good relations. I see no reason why we cannot have good relations with both the Soviet Union and China.

§ Lord BYERS
My Lords, situations like this are extremely difficult to get into perspective, particularly at this distance from Peking. I would only express the hope that this incident will not adversely affect SALT or détente on which we have not been making particular progress up to now as regards the Russians. I hope that the noble Lord will accept from these Benches that we want to have, and to maintain, proper, positive relations with the People's Republic of China.

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I am grateful for the remarks of the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Party in this House. We want good relations with China and quite recently we had a very good debate on Anglo-Chinese matters.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, does my noble friend regard it as remarkable, outstanding, exceptional, and all the rest of it, for the Chief of Staff to have expressed even in an impromptu fashion that we must be very careful about countries like Russia, especially when we in the United Kingdom are spending £7,000 million a year? What for? Is it because we are friendly with Russia and do not expect any trouble from Russia? Are we 13 to understand that Russia is a dear friend and we ought to send her love and kisses? Finally, I should like to ask my noble friend whether the allegation in the Press, if it happens to he true—I cannot say that it is true and I would not care to vouch for everything that appears in the Press—that Sir Neil Cameron was drunk when he made the statement, was because he drank too much vodka? Is he aware that, if somebody cares to provide me with plenty of drink, I shall say something much worse than he said?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Shinwell has made a characteristic intervention. However, as regards the argument about whether the Chief of the Defence Staff was drunk, I cannot vouch for anything like that—why should I? In the sense that it is reported that Russia has said that, I think that people can make too much of it and that we should play it in a much lower key.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that we cannot have sensible strategic planning without a potential enemy, and that in NATO the potential enemy is Russia? In Chinese planning the potential enemy is Russia. In Russia's planning the potential enemies are China and NATO. To make a fuss because that is stated makes very great nonsense.

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, it may well be, but on the other hand remarks must he judged in the context of the political situation. As I have said, we want good relations with China as well as with the Soviet Union. I cannot go beyond that.

§ Lord PANNELL
My Lords, will my noble friend say whether he approves of policy statements being made by functionaries rather than Ministers?

§ Lord PEART
No, my Lords; I believe that Ministers should make major statements on policy—of course I do.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, while appreciating the personal reference made to me by the Leader of the Opposition, may I ask, with reference to his statement, whether it is not the case that both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have recognised the sincerity of Mr. Brezhnev in his disarmament proposals?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I do not think that I should add to what I have said already. We are anxious to have détente. We have entered into talks with the Soviet Union and I want those talks io succeed, as we all do. So, I do not think that playing off China against the Soviet Union, or vice versa, will do anyone any good. We want peace all round.

§ Lord ORR-EWING
My Lords, will the noble Lord take this oppertunity to remind Russia that we may want détente, but détente is a two-way street and, until we see some approach from Russia, talks such as the ones Sir Neil Cameron is carrying out must logically go ahead?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, we are not denying that talks should not be held. I think that it is right that they should be held, and even going to China to speak to Chinese leaders is a correct policy and a correct approach. However, at the same time we do have talks with the Soviet Union and we are committed to have talks about arms limitation policy, which we wish to be successful.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, I should like to ask a question on a Flatter of procedure. According to the Press, I understood that the Prime Minister was to make a statement in another place this afternoon. If there is any truth in that, is it in accordance with the traditions of the House—with great respect to ny noble friend who has a perfect right to ask a Question whenever he likes—that a Private Notice Question should be accepted?

§ Lord PEART
Yes. Actually, the Answer in the other place was made by the Secretary of State for Defence.

§ Lord LEATHERLAND
My Lords, has any effort been made to obtain a verbatim report of the speech that was made by the Chief of Defence Staff, because it is well known to anybody who has anything to do with newspapers that a sub-editor picks out a juicy sentence or two and ignores all the rest.

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, my noble friend has had experience of the Press as a working editor. All I can say is, Yes, we have taken care.