HL Deb 23 March 1978 vol 389 cc1916-9

11.11 a.m.

Lord GRIDLEY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, in the case of officers seconded under contract from the United Kingdom to the Government of Zambia, whether they are aware of the delay in the payment of gratuities and leave pay to these officers by the Government of Zambia when due.

Lord ORAM

My Lords, very few officers are seconded from British Government services, and those who are would have no difficulties over exchange controls since they are paid in sterling by their home departments. Most of those experiencing the difficulties mentioned by the noble Lord are Zambian Government employees, recruited and paid by them but in receipt of a supplementary allowance from Her Majesty's Government which is payable in the United Kingdom. Wherever practicable, these officers are given the chance to attend briefing courses at Farnham Castle at which they are made aware of various aspects of conditions of service and life in Zambia, including these difficulties. Ways of publicising the situation more widely are also being considered.

Lord GRIDLEY

My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that Answer and appreciate the difficulties of going into this matter in a little greater depth, I hope he will understand that the supplementary question which I propose to ask is a constructive one. Is it not a fact that, in the case of the delays in the payments to which the noble Lord refers, Rhodesian sanctions and the closure of the border between Zambia and Rhodesia, together with the fall in the world price of copper, are causing grave difficulties to the Zambian Government? If that situation were to go on there could be the threat of disturbances in that area. Is the noble Lord in a position to tell us whether President Kenneth Kaunda has studied the internal settlement for Rhodesia or whether some representative of Her Majesty's Government has made helpful representations to him on that internal settlement?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, certainly Her Majesty's Government fully understand the economic difficulties which are facing Zambia and which the noble Lord has summarised. They are, of course, causing considerable foreign payments difficulties for Zambia. I am quite sure that President Kaunda will be fully aware of the proposed internal settlement, but it seems to me that is a question which goes much wider than the original Question on the Order Paper.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, while I think all your Lordships will understand the economic position and the difficulties that the Zambians have at the present time, would it not be possible in cases of hardship for Her Majesty's Government to advance money to these officers, if they are in trouble, until such time as the Zambian Government can pay?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, that would be possible. Some such system was operating in relation to Uganda when people were leaving that country, but the experience arising out of that has not been very fortunate. Therefore I think we would look rather closely at any suggestion of a similar scheme in relation to Zambia.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, while I appreciate the penultimate answer of my noble friend, is it not the case that Zambia has probably suffered more than Rhodesia as a result of its loyalty in carrying out sanctions against Rhodesia? Therefore, will Her Majesty's Government seek, in consultation with President Kaunda, to settle this matter in a conciliatory way?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, it is true that, as a result of the unfortunate history of the last 10 years or more, Zambia has suffered not only through the reduction in copper prices but also from the disruption of her normal means of trade. I think my noble friend is aware that Her Majesty's Government are constantly in touch with President Kaunda in relation to the Rhodesian problem.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, will the Minister have another look at this matter? Is it not really a question of the position of the officers themselves and of the money they have not been receiving, and not so much a matter of the obvious impossibility of Zambia being able to pay? Surely this Government should undertake to give some money to these officers to live on in the meantime, regardless of whether or not Zambia will be prosperous in the future?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, the problem to which the question is directed is the repatriation of funds into this country and not the receipt of funds in Zambia on which to live. It is a question of funds being able to be repatriated to this country.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, as I understand the Question, it refers to the delay in the payment of gratuities and leave pay. That is money which these officers are entitled to receive as of now, and the Government should surely see that they are getting this money.

Lord ORAM

My Lords, as I understand it, the problem of gratuities and leave pay is that they want to have those funds available in this country. It is that difficulty which is very difficult to overcome because of the balance of payments situation of Zambia.

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, will the noble Lord suggest to his right honourable friend that he ought not to be put off by the Ugandan experience? Will he suggest that he will be dealing with a different sort of Administration, we hope, and that the chances of reaching an agreement on the question of repayment are more likely in this case than they have been at some times in the past?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I agree that each case has to be looked at separately, but, in relation to advancing funds to officers who have left a particular country, I think the experience in Uganda is relevant.

Lord WIGG

My Lords, is there not a distinction which the Minister has failed to draw between an officer who is normally working for the British Government and who was seconded by the British Government to the Zambian Government, and an individual who goes out there under contract, for whom there is no relationship whatever with the British Government? Would he not agree that the Question rather smears that over when it talks of being, seconded under contract from the United Kingdom"? An officer is either seconded or under contract: not both.

Lord ORAM

Yes, my Lords; but if my noble friend will look again at my original Answer I think he will find that that distinction is made clear.