§ 11.24 a.m.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
1922§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider there is a need for all safety officers working for companies and factories to hold a Diploma in Safety Management and, if so, whether they will invoke paragraph 6 of Schedule 3 to the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 which gives the power to the Minister to restrict performance of specified functions to persons with special qualifications.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government's view at the present time is that there is not an immediate need for invoking, in the case of safety officers, paragraph 6 of Schedule 3 to the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. However, the chairman of the Health and Safety Commission informs me that the question of the employment, training and qualifications of safety officers is under consideration by the Health and Safety Commission, following their Discussion Document on the subject published by the Health and Safety Executive in 1976. If the Commission's consideration of these basic issues points to the need for a nationally recognised qualification for safety officers, they will have to consider what those qualifications should be and whether they should be made mandatory.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that very helpful Answer. I think that the British Safety Council have very good standards which could be used, and they say that training can prevent about 50 per cent. of the accidents. When there were over 900,000 serious accidents and 30 million minor accidents, surely it is a good idea to have somebody trained?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, in reply to the noble Baroness, she will, of course, agree with me that training is in fact carried out at the present time, although it varies a great deal in content and duration. For her information, and for the information of the House, I would say that training is provided by universities, including Aston University and Imperial College London, and by a number of polytechnics and colleges of further education throughout the country, as well as by voluntary bodies, which include the Institution of Industrial Safety Officers, 1923 the Institute of Municipal Safety Officers, et cetera. The polytechnics and colleges of further education often use the examination and syllabus of the Institution of Industrial Safety Officers. So, at the present time, their training is carried on to a fairly high standard. But I can understand the noble Baroness's point. She is concerned with a registered diploma qualification and, as I indicated, this is a possible matter for consideration.
§ Lord MURRAY of GRAVESENDMy Lords, in view of the fact that in most factories the employment of safety officers is a very hit-and-miss affair, and safety generally turns out to be the job of somebody who is just shoved on to it, and also in view of the very high loss of man-days due to accidents, will my noble friend urge the Health and Safety Commission to look at this matter very urgently?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYYes, my Lords. Certainly I can give that assurance. But I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that there should be adequate consultation on this point between management and trade unions. In addition to safety officers, there are many other people in factories who have responsibilities and who should receive some training. It is the responsibility of the trade unions and management to see that these people are adequately trained.
§ Several noble Lords: Order!
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any provision is made for training in the use of the almost unknown and unidentified poisons which are being used in manufacturing processes, and whether there are facilities for making representations as to the conditions under which it would be safe to use them?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I recognise my noble friend's deep 1924 interest in these matters. But rather than give an answer on the spot, I should prefer to get the detail for him so that he may be fully satisfied and informed.
Viscount St. DAVIDSMy Lords, is a possible path through this problem to give higher pay, first, to safety officers for their duties and, secondly, to qualified safety officers according to their qualifications, thus possibly building up the body of safety officers who are so needed in this business, rather than trying to make it statutory at once?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I would rather not embark on discussions on pay problems at this stage.