§ 2.45 p.m.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I should like to follow the example of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, and point out that there is a misprint in the Question on the Order Paper. The word "fiancées" is not spelt in exactly the way in which I handed it in. I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question, as corrected, was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many of the cases in 1977 in which 2,710 men in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh applied to join their fiancées in Britain were cases of arranged marriages.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, applications are not recorded in such a way as to show whether or not the intended marriage is an arranged one.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I suggest that in future he does take action in this regard? Surely, these women in this country, who are either brought here as young people or are born 1682 here, have human rights; and I thought that Her Majesty's Government were keen on supporting human rights. Surely, it is up to them to see that these rights are safeguarded in respect of these women who are often married against their will.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I did say that they are not recorded. It is not an indication that the Government are indifferent to this kind of situation. The Government recognise that in many cases male fiancés are applying to come here to enter into marriages which have been arranged for them, usually by their parents or relatives. This is not prohibited under the immigration rules and therefore no separate statistics for such applications are being kept. It might be very difficult to keep accurate statistics on every aspect of immigration.
The immigration rules, as the noble Baroness knows, were amended in 1977 to prevent men from achieving settlement by marriage of convenience, whether the marriage is arranged or not. Fiancés coming here to marry are permitted to enter the United Kingdom for three months. If a marriage takes place within that time they may have their permits extended for a further 12 months. After that time they may be permitted to remain permanently provided there is no reason to believe that the marriage is one of convenience entered into primarily to obtain settlement with no intention of living together permanently as man and wife. If it is found to be just a ruse to enter here and stay, action is taken to see that the person does not remain in this country.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, in view of what the noble Lord has said about their being genuine marriages not undertaken for the sake of getting into this country, can he give the approximate numbers of people who go from this country to India to join their fiancés there? It must be, presumably, similar to the number coming here.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I have no information of those who go from the United Kingdom either to Pakistan or to the Indian sub-continent. I have only the numbers of those who come the other way.
Lord HAWKEMy Lords, are the Government aware that in the Indian sub-continent the marriage of a daughter is a very expensive performance, but that where the girl is resident in this country she becomes a great asset—the young man is prepared to pay heavily to be chosen as her fiancé to come to this country—and that the arranged marriage is the normal method of marriage in the Indian sub-continent?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we accept that. The only point I am trying to make is that, notwithstanding that, if the male partner comes over on that basis we are at some pains to see that the marriage is really functioning as we understand marriage here; that is, that the couple are living together and consorting. If it is found that they come merely as a matter of convenience and are not living together as husband and wife and are not setting up home, as we understand it, then a very different situation arises.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, ought not statistics to be kept on this subject? It may be that we have taken steps to deal with the fraudulent cases; but is it not a fact that the honest cases are really attempts to avoid joining our community, to prevent girls from finding English boys to marry and to prevent them from becoming part of our community? Is this something which ought to be acceptable to us?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, as I said earlier on, there is always a case for trying to keep accurate statistics. One has to hear in mind that it is a very difficult, time-consuming and expensive business. We try so far as possible, but it is very difficult to say that one can provide accurate statistics regarding every aspect of life.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, assuming the question by the noble Lord, Lord Paget of Northampton, is a serious one, how on earth can one find out whether a given marriage was originally arranged by the parents if it was afterwards celebrated and celebrated voluntarily?
The Earl of SELKIRKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it constitutes 1684 an offence to go through a formal marriage without the slightest intention of ever fulfilling the purposes of marriage?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I should like notice of that question. It has certain legal as well as moral implications. I should not like to answer that off the cuff.