§ 3.22 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
1477§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many local authorities have initiated lotteries and whether if a surplus remains after meeting expenses it is intended to use it to reduce rates.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I understand that by 14th March 1978—namely, last Tuesday—246 local authorities had registered lottery schemes with the Gaming Board for Great Britain, and that 87 of these had submitted accounts of lotteries actually held. The Lotteries and Amusements Act 1976 requires a local authority to apply money accruing from a local lottery only to the particular purpose or purposes for which it had been promoted.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I thank my noble friend very much for that information, which is somewhat inadequate. What are these particular purposes to which my noble friend refers? Is it not in order to help to reduce rates, or perhaps provide more amenities, or something of the sort? What does this ambiguous phrase, "particular purposes" mean?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think there is any ambiguity at all. A local authority can promote a lottery for any purpose in respect of which it has power to incur expenditure under any enactment. It may well be that a local authority would want to run a lottery to construct a swimming pool or open a recreation ground. It can raise money to do all these things because they are purposes for which it has power to incur expenditure under an enactment. It is for the local authority to decide on the various schemes that it wants. It may well be that, having done so, and having got enough money in to erect the particular building that it wants, inevitably that will work towards the reduction of rates because the cost of it would not have to be found out of normal rate income. But it is important that the local authority clearly indicates the purpose. It is not sufficient for a local authority to say, "We want to run a lottery for social, cultural, environmental or recreational facilities, or for the public welfare", or to say "for something not yet determined ". It must clearly decide and indicate the particular project for which it wants the lottery money.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I am now grateful to my noble friend for the information he has given. Why was he keeping it up his sleeve? Why could he not have told me in the first place what he meant by "particular purposes "? Now I will ask him this question: Is there anything improper in using the surplus for the purpose of reducing the rates? Would it not be very desirable to encourage other local authorities to follow the lead to which my noble friend has referred? As a result of these lotteries some people may lose money and some may gain some money, but if the general result leads to some reduction in rates would that not be desirable?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not want to quarrel with my noble friend, but I in fact answered his Question, which was,
… whether if a surplus remains after meeting expenses it is intended to use it to reduce rates?".If money has been raised for a specific purpose, I think the implication is that it must be used for that purpose and can be used for some other purpose only if the local authority gets the specific consent of the Secretary of State to apply any surplus for any other purpose.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, could the noble Lord say whether the figures of the results of these lotteries, as they are completed from time to time, are going to be published and available for inspection?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I imagine there will be a responsibility on the local authorities to publish them, but I cannot recall (simply because I cannot remember the Act in its entirety) whether it is an obligation on them. I should have thought that, in the circumstances, there would be an obligation to do so.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, perhaps my noble friend would forgive a final question now that he has referred to the Secretary of State. Can we not ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State to empower the local authorities to use some of the surplus for the purpose of reducing rates?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend, and I will bring his remarks to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ Lord SKELMERSDALEMy Lords, could the noble Lord say whether to run a lottery for the sole purpose of reducing the rate burden in a particular place would be a proper purpose?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, my understanding—and I will write to the noble Lord if I am wrong—is that it would not be proper to do that, to run a lottery merely to reduce the rates, because as I understand the situation a local authority can run a lottery only for a purpose in respect of which it has power to incur expenditure under any particular enactment.
Lord HAWKEMy Lords, when will Her Majesty's Government pluck up their courage and have a national lottery in aid of the National Health Service, which is so badly in need of money?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, apart from the fact that that is another question, I would want to think very carefully before answering it.
§ The Earl of KINTOREMy Lords, if there is a surplus on some capital project—a swimming bath, a health centre or something of this sort—would it be legitimate to use that surplus for the annual running costs until such time as the balance was exhausted?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think I ought to give what would appear to be an authoritative reply, because I just do not know; but if money were raised for the purpose of providing the community with a special facility I should have thought that any money left over could be used for its maintenance.