§ Earl CATHCARTMy Lords, with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Gray, who is unavoidably prevented from attending your Lordships' House this afternoon:
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, on receipt of the recommendations of the Pay Review Board, they will as a matter of urgency introduce percentage increases in the pay of the Armed Forces comparable with the increases in earnings recently allowed to the firemen and miners.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Government will make their decision on the Forces' 1978 pay award once they have received the Armed Forces' Pay Review Body's report. No purpose is served by speculation at this stage about the content of the Review Body's report or the Government's final decision.
§ Earl CATHCARTMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply, which of course does not take us very much further forward. Does he remember that on 24th November last a serving officer wrote to The Times saying that morale was low in the Armed Forces and that unless something was done about Forces' pay the numbers applying to leave would reach stampede proportions? Does the noble Lord also remember that in the defence debate which followed, on 7th December, which was initiated by my 1470 noble friend and Leader Lord Carrington, I referred to that letter in The Times and, while I agreed about the stampede, which I said had already begun, I did not accept that the morale of the Armed Forces was in any way impaired, because of their sense of discipline and the fact that their devotion was such as to be able to overcome it? Will the noble Lord give an assurance on behalf of the Government that they will give very detailed consideration to the pay of the Armed Forces to ensure that comparability with important parts of industry is established and that the X factor is given full consideration? I must tell the noble Lord that if this is not done—
Several noble Lords: Question!
§ Earl CATHCARTMy Lords, does the Minister realise that if this is not done a very serious situation will arise in the Armed Forces and that one will not be able to say in future that morale is being maintained?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMThe concern expressed by the noble Earl, my Lords, is shared by all those who concern themselves with the interests of the Armed Forces. I can only repeat what has been said many times; namely, that the Government are pledged to restore the comparability of Service pay as soon as pay policy permits. As to the X factor, the Armed Forces' Pay Review Body may well make recommendations on this element of remuneration.
§ Lord MURRAY of GRAVESENDMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that this constant harping by the Opposition on the results of the Pay Review Body before they are made public also helps to lower the morale of the Armed Forces?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I said—
§ Earl CATHCARTDoes the noble Lord appreciate—
Several noble Lords: Order!
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMI said that no purpose is served by speculation at this moment, my Lords. Noble Lords will not have to wait very long before we can talk about something concrete.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, will the Minister bear in mind—everybody in the country should know this—that most people in this House would like the Armed Forces to get more pay without delay and therefore as quickly as possible?
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, may we have an assurance from the Minister that the Government will not on this occasion give with one hand and take away with the other? Is he aware that one of the major senses of annoyance to many members of the Forces is that pay rises are ostensibly given and then every form of perquisite—house and so on—is charged for at a higher rate?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the matter of charges as well as pay will be covered in the Armed Forces' Pay Review Body's report.
Lord CHELWOODMy Lords, do the Government accept that the number of officers and non-commissioned officers retiring voluntarily during the last six or eight months has reached serious proportions and that this is very worrying?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is something we must watch with care.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, may we have an assurance that the noble Lord and all other Ministers dealing with the Forces have put the case for the Services very strongly to the Pay Review Body? Would the noble Lord take into consideration a suggestion I made in relation to an earlier Question; namely, that one way out of it would be, as one noble Lord intimated, to go back to the previous situation of not charging for rations and quarters?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the recommendations of the heads of the three Armed Forces to the Pay Review Body must of course be confidential, but, knowing them, I am fairly certain that they have stated their views with some force.
§ Earl CATHCARTMy Lords, is the Minister aware that what the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Gravesend, described as harping would be regarded almost as 1472 divine right if a trade union leader made the same remarks? Is he aware that what I am doing is not pretending to be a trade union leader for the Armed Forces, but trying to get a fair deal for the people with whom I served all my adult life?
§ Lord HEWLETTMy Lords, assuming, as Her Majesty's Government may do, that they may stay in office for longer than many of us think, surely there must be a target date for the restoration of complete and full comparability. Is the noble Lord aware that only a positive answer in this regard will allay the deepest fears of Servicemen? Will be therefore please state categorically what is the target date for the restoration of comparability?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I said earlier that both I and others more competent to speak have given an assurance that the Government are pledged to restore the comparability of Service pay as soon as pay policy permits. I am certain that the opportunity will soon be given to your Lordships to discuss the actual proposals of the Pay Review Body and the Government's reaction to them.