HL Deb 14 March 1978 vol 389 cc1171-3

2.40 p.m.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government—

  1. (a) what is the justification for licensing authorities' demanding the presentation of audited accounts from applicants who require a restricted operator's licence to run a lorry;
  2. (b) how many licensing authorities adopt this practice before issuing such licences; and
  3. (c) on how many occasions has this request been made during the last convenient 12-month period.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, licensing authorities have the power by Statute to satisfy themselves that an applicant for a restricted operator's licence has appropriate financial resources. Her Majesty's Government see the justification for this power as the need to ensure that operators have a sound financial base for the safe operation of their vehicles. As the rules governing operators' licensing recently changed and the restricted operator's licence has only applied since 1st January 1978, I do not think it would be helpful to the House to quote statistics of a previous year when all operators applied for the same type of licence. If the noble Earl would find it helpful—it is a complicated subject—I shall write to him and explain the position in more detail.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply and, indeed, for that offer. But is she aware that some small businesses, and indeed some farmers, have been asked to provide their audited accounts when applying for a licence to run a sugar beet lorry? Is this not an intolerable interference in the private financial affairs of members of the public, and will the noble Baroness do her best to see that it is stopped?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, people who have the restricted licence—which is the licence to move their own goods to and from places—if asked, still have to produce some evidence that they have financial stability within their accounts and, therefore, are able to maintain and service their lorries in a proper manner. My information is that it is not always done by means of audited accounts; it can be done by a simple banker's reference. This is dependent on the attitude of the licensing authorities. Only this morning I was assured that in the case of these restricted licences it is normally done by a banker's reference.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness very much for that information. Maybe it is due to the attitude of the licensing authorities. But if that is the case, will she do her best to ensure that the licensing authorities take a more reasonable attitude?—because it cannot be right for a person who applies just for a licence to have to produce accounts showing his company's profits and balance sheet, and the amount of money in the business, which is totally irrelevant.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I shall certainly make more inquiries following what the noble Earl has said. If he can give me particular instances, I shall take them up. I am sure the noble Earl will appreciate that some small business applicants for these licences do not have a real appreciation of the costs of the running, maintenance and replacement of their vehicles. We are trying to ensure that vehicles on the roads are safe.

Lord ORR-EWING

My Lords, is not the noble Baroness aware that in this instance it was a case of renewing the licence and that the man must have known the costs of running his lorry in the previous year? Could the noble Baroness make it clear to all and sundry that we do not wish to see another case of Government officials chasing small businesses and individuals for totally unnecessary information when it is not justified on any account at all?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, as I said, the licensing authorities have the power to ask for this information if they require to be satisfied. Again, if the noble Lord would like to let me have particulars of the case where, presumably, the person had been satisfactory in an earlier instance, then I shall certainly take it up. We would hope that the licensing authorities would not ask for too much information if they could be happily satisfied with a banker's reference, but it is a matter for the individual licensing authorities and not my Department.

Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH

My Lords, as there is some variance between one licensing authority and another, would it not be appropriate if notes of guidance were issued so that each authority worked to a common standard? Then one group of operators would not feel themselves at a disadvantage to another group.

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I shall certainly take that suggestion back to my right honourable friend.