HL Deb 09 March 1978 vol 389 cc918-9

3.12 p.m.

Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEU

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the event of their recognising a new Government in Rhodesia, they will ensure the continuance of pensions to ex-Rhodesian civil servants, both black and white.

Lord ORAM

My Lords, as was made clear in the White Paper on Proposals for a Settlement (Cmnd. 6919), published on 1st September 1977, the Government envisage that, in accordance with precedent, the Government of Zimbabwe would take over all past and present pensions obligations in the public sector, the rights of the pensioners being guaranteed by the Constitution.

Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEU

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, which I think will be received with some satisfaction by many people who feel very insecure at present. However, has this question been raised by the Foreign Secretary during his talks with the Patriotic Front?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I think not. It would surprise me if, as regards the talks that are taking place at a highly political level, there were sufficient time to include this particular less political question.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, would it not be perhaps more comforting to the people who have served what we are told is an English Colony for many, many years, and whom the British Government at the time of UDI advised to continue in their service, if a guarantee came from Her Majesty's Government rather than from a Government of such very doubtful composition?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, no. It is important that any decision as regards Rhodesia should be in line with pension arrangements in relation to other colonies. I have indicated that that is what the Government intend to bring about.

The EARL of HALSBURY

My Lords, if the Government and the Constitution were subverted, as might easily be the case, would Her Majesty's Government feel no sense of obligation towards these ex-employees, or would they wash their hands?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, it is important to understand what an expatriate is in terms of colonial pensions. An expatriate is one who was engaged in public service over which the Secretary of State had control and employed on conditions of service entitling him to overseas leave passage arrangements. Those who were working in Rhodesia do not come under that description.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, is there not a distinction between a legal Government and an illegal Government? Had we not responsibility in Rhodesia before UDI was proclaimed, but no responsibility after an illegal Government was proclaimed?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, the main Question and my main Answer was directed to the future situation—to which we all look forward—of a settlement.