§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEUMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether some method could be devised to mark driving licences in some suitable way to denote the willingness of persons to give vital organs, suitable for 787 transplant, to hospitals in the event of death.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, much as I sympathise with the noble Lord's underlying intention, I fear that this proposal involves problems of great complexity. We have, of course, considered with some care whether these could be overcome—in the context, in particular, of kidney donation, which is an area where we have been able to do a good deal already. At the same time we have reached the reluctant conclusion that at present there are overriding objections, both of principle and of practice, to taking a step of the kind now proposed.
§ Lord MONTAGU of BEAULIEUMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Is she aware that this will lead to considerable disappointment to thousands of people in this country who wish to register their intentions more effectively in a more practical way? The noble Baroness mentioned overriding objections. Does this not show perhaps in this electronic age how very inefficient the computer at Swansea is if it cannot cope with such a simple problem, which can be coped with by other countries? Finally, may I suggest, since this computer cannot cope with it, that perhaps a way out might be some simple sticker which a driver could put on his own licence?
§ Lord STONEMy Lords, may I ask what shape it would take—heart, liver?
Several noble Lords: Order, order!
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, there are practical problems in marking a driving licence. There is not all that much space left on a driving licence for putting in extra marks at the moment. We have up to this time sent out kidney donor cards with applications for provisional licences, and we have run into some trouble with that: we have had complaints from people who assume that sending them a kidney donor card means: "Driving is dangerous; all drivers will get killed; please give away your kidneys. We have had quite considerable objections, particularly from parents and from young people themselves who are asking for their first driving licence. There are also problems because, now we 788 are on the computer, by the end of this year" till-70 driving licences will have been issued. This means that there is not going to be further application for a driving licence until people reach the age of 70. Therefore, a separate dispatch of any other donor cards would have to be made, with the necessary additional cost. There are certain practical objections, but it is something that I know my Department and the DHSS are looking into. I should have thought that perhaps more widespread information about where people could obtain cards to register organs they wanted to donate might be pursued more effectively than by marking driving licences.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, I am sure that the Government are aware that this is an extremely important problem, that people are dying for want of renal transplantations and that the main difficulty is the finding of donors. Does not the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, provide us with a way out? Are we really to accept that there might not be room on the licence form for this information? Is that a reason for not saving people's lives? Finally, will Her Majesty's Government look into this particular question a little further and give us more cogent and convincing reasons why it cannot be done?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I accept most of what the noble Lord, Lord Platt, has said. However, as I have said, we have run into difficulties. We have received objections to sending out the kidney donor cards to people applying for provisional licences. What does not seem to be understood is that perhaps something like 50 per cent. of the people who drive, if they have an accident, would not have their driving licence with them and therefore any mark on their driving licence would not be of any use. There are more passengers killed in cars than there are drivers and, indeed, there are more pedestrians killed than the drivers or the passengers of cars. I sympathise with the intention behind the suggestion and I think that there is a need for the Departments concerned to get together and to see whether we can make more widely known the ways and means by which people can donate their organs. If other Departments were to approach my 789 Department, it is certainly something that we would look at sympathetically and would try to do something about.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, is likely to prove far more effective than the distribution of 15 million kidney donor cards which, I am told, has so far yeilded totally inadequate results? Would my noble friend also consider the suggestion that the number plates of cars be marked with some small symbol, such as a red cross or a similar sign, in the same way as the number plates of American cars proclaim the tourist advantages of each of the Federal States? In this instance, could not that system be used far more effectively in the saving of human lives?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I accept that we should look at all means whereby we might know whether organs may be used in the event of a fatal accident. However, as I have tried to explain, there are certain practical problems and certain problems associated with intrusion into the privacy of the person and so on. Therefore, I think that I must take the suggestions that have been made here today back to my Secretary of State so that we can perhaps look at the matter with the DHSS to see whether there are any other ways in which we can help. At present, we are not convinced that to deal with this matter by the use of driving licences is the best or most satisfactory way.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I think that we have had a good run on this Question.