§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take to increase investment in Third World mineral resources, such as copper and nickel, without which the industrial production of the manufacturing nations is endangered, while the economies of those Third World countries which depend on exports of such minerals encounter serious difficulties.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Government are very aware of the need for adequate mineral investment if supplies for industrial users in all countries are to be safeguarded, and they recognise the contribution which such investments can make to the economies of Third World producers of minerals. For these reasons, they are playing a full part in the international and EEC discussions which have as one of their aims the establishment of more favourable conditions for mining investment.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. But is he aware that a number of Third World countries have economies which are now in a critical position? That arises, I believe, because it would appear that not only are the costs of their imports rising astronomically but the amounts they can get for their exports are way down. Secondly, it would seem there is now a policy among certain industrial nations not to purchase from Third World countries but rather to get their supplies from comparatively wealthy countries such as Canada and the United States. If that goes on, only Government interference can stop the collapse of some of t hose countries.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I think my noble friend's analysis is probably correct. However, we are acting in conjunction with other major industrial Powers. As I said, we are playing a full part in the international and EEC discussions which are aimed at solving this particular problem.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord accept that the multinational company, which has of late been the subject of a great deal of criticism from his friends on the Left, is an institution which can be used or abused just like any other institution? Does he agree that we should do what we can to see that conditions make it possible for these companies, which are the most suitable instruments for large capital investments in developing countries, to do so with security? Finally, do the noble Lord and his friends not accept that where the host country has a programme which requires national participation by the host country in the investment to a specified percentage, the companies' interests are protected, so that we ought to facilitate this movement?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the role of the multinational companies is an extremely interesting one but it is not one for analysis or solution at Question Time.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether that is his final word on the subject?—because the multinational company is in fact the principal instrument by which the investments 953 referred to by the noble Lord opposite are at present made, and it is crucial to this question.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, did my noble friend state in his original reply that the EEC or some department of the EEC was likely to inquire into this matter to try to reach some solution? Can he say how many of the EEC countries are involved? Also, can he give us any guarantee that the United Kingdom will get a fair and square deal?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, of course, all the EEC countries are concerned, and I am certain that our negotiating members at the various conferences on this subject will defend the interests of this country.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that it is quite impossible in present circumstances for a country like Zambia, to take one example, to plan its economy when the price of copper can vary from below £700 a ton to £1,400 a ton within one year? Would he further agree that, as the copper mines in Zambia are nationalised, it would be appropriate for Her Majesty's Government, quite separately from membership of the EEC, to give some assistance to this ailing industry in a very friendly country?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is a problem that cannot be solved by one industrial nation alone; namely, ourselves. It must be done in conjunction with the major industrial powers of the world; to wit the United States, Japan and the EEC.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, does the noble Lord not accept that, in order to do that, it is necessary to have a policy, and that this country, in conjunction with others, should have a policy on buffer stocks, on commodity agreements and on international companies?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is splendid stuff, but the point is that it needs a major debate and cannot be solved at Question Time.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, cannot the Government devote as much energy 954 to constructive projects in the Third World as they now devote to selling arms to them? Why not have a development exhibition, similar to today's Army equipment exhibition, largely devoted to the Third World? Could this idea be put to the Minister for Overseas Development?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, exhibitions will not solve this problem.
§ Lord PARRYMy Lords, on the rôle of the multinational company, which is of course central to this debate and is not a matter of left or right in politics, will my noble friend agree that there is real and adequate cause for concern in any situation where a company responsible only to its shareholders can wield more power within a small nation than the Government of that nation or its people?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I can reply to my noble friend only what I have replied to other noble Lords. It is a fascinating subject, but it is not a subject for Question Time.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us would like to see his suggestion acted upon?—in other words, we should like a debate on this subject. Is he further aware that those of your Lordships who have served on the Select Committee on Commodity Prices were, for instance, told by Sir Mark Turner that after 1980 our supplies of copper will be in a very dangerous situation indeed? So merely from our own point of view—never mind the EEC—it is very important that we should move.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am certain that my noble friend's remarks will be noted by the appropriate authorities.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, in view of the fact that the Question is
what steps they"—the Government—propose to take to increase investment in Third World mineral resources",why this cannot be a subject of bilateral arrangements in some cases? Why must 955 we always have to work with other countries? I am not against that, but why cannot there be bilateral arrangements?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am not an expert on this matter—I am sure that your Lordships' House has an expert on it—but I understand that most of these commodities, six of which are under major discussion, are subject to an international price policy.