§ 11.10 a.m.
§ Lord FLETCHERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, may I apologise to the House for the fact that, although this Question was on the Order Paper last Friday, I was unavoidably detained at the last moment from being here, and I regret any inconvenience caused either to the Minister or the House.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans are in contemplation for removing custodians from a number of museums and historic sites in the protection of the Directorate of Ancient Monuments; and whether they have considered the effect any such action would have on the tourist industry as well as inconvenience to the general public.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that apology. As part of the essential exercise to reduce the cost of Civil Service manpower, the number of all-the-year-round custodians at Ancient Monuments in the Department of the Environment's care has unfortunately had to be reduced, but additional seasonal staff are being employed in summer so that monuments will still be open to the public, although more will be left unattended in winter. At several unmanned sites it is proposed to install vending machines for the sale of guide books. I expect the effect on the tourist industry to be negligible.
§ Lord FLETCHERMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether the Minister would be good enough to indicate in some detail what will be the result of these economies? Am I right in thinking that some one hundred custodians will become redundant? Am I right in thinking that some museums, such as the museum at Rich-borough, and Maison Dieu at Ospringe, and Thornton Abbey in Lincolnshire, 676 will be closed? Is the Minister aware that, as a result of this step a number of famous and ancient monuments will, presumably, be left unattended, with consequent inconvenience to the public and increased risk of vandalism? Would the Minister be good enough to publish a list to show precisely the effect of these proposals?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords. That is quite a considerable number of supplementary questions. May I first say that as it is my departmental responsibility for this particular area, I feel very unhappy that we have had to do this at all, but as my noble friend will appreciate, my colleagues in my own Department and right across the Government all have their own particular areas where they also do not want cuts. What we are trying to do, if possible, is to take the greatest care to maintain and also to improve our service in the summer and economise in winter. At some monuments, I must point out, the takings in winter were found to be less than £10 a week. We are also trying, and have been all the time, not to leave unattended those monuments which will be open to vandalism. Some of the monuments are less fragile than others, as my noble friend is aware, and at those that are very little visited in winter we do have to economise as long as there is no danger to the monuments.
My noble friend also asked me about museums such as Richborough. The collection has been removed from Rich-borough, both for conservation and security reasons, and its future is still under consideration. I cannot at the moment—and I also think it is very much better if I do not even start—hazard figures about reductions because at this particular time I am in the process of trying to see how I can find ways of not reducing manpower beyond absolute necessity. I should be very grateful if my noble friend would leave that point while I am trying to get matters sorted out. I can only assure him that there will be no custodian loss from any monument if I can possibly avoid it. If when I go through Hansard I see some points which he raised (because he raised quite a number) on which he has not had a reply or on which I think it would be useful for me to write to him, I will do so, as I think it would be better.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, would the noble Baroness bear in mind that I am absolutely against the policy, and would she accept my congratulations as she seems to be against it too? The custodians are marvellous people and I think it would be a great deprivation to very many people if they were no longer there to give the help and advice that they do to tourists visiting these monuments of ours. So will she kindly do everything she can to stop their departure?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords, I certainly will. This is what I am trying to do. I am very well aware that many of the custodians are greatly attached to the monument and they act as very knowledgeable guides, and people come and see them time after time. It is this human aspect as well that I think is so important.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that the most serious aspect of this matter is that these monuments and museums are in the care of the Department of the Environment, and that not to have a custodian is a very serious matter for the country as a whole? Could she indicate what she thinks the savings from this exercise will be?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I should like to point out that the National Trust has to follow the same line, and some of the buildings in its care also have to go uncared for in winter. I cannot give the noble Baroness an answer now, because the exercise is being conducted at this moment, but I can tell her that, over all, the admissions and sales from monuments in our care come to £6,048,000. That is gross take. But the expenditure on them is £14½ million, so we are very much in the red despite this income.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, will the noble Baroness realise that she has many allies in the battle that obviously she is waging within the Department? I had a responsibility similar to hers for a number of years, and I know that that section of the Department does not carry the support it ought to have from the other parts. She ought to bear in mind that this section has a potential which would justify spending more money on it. The place 678 to save manpower is where manpower is not likely to produce anything and has no future. But here, with tourism and the necessity of attracting people from overseas as well as keeping our own people within the country for their holidays, there is a great potential for producing something, and in fighting that battle she will have allies in all parts of the House and elsewhere.
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for what he has said. Every point he raised I have made constantly both within and outside the Department, but I am glad to have it said again.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the figures of an intake of £6 million and outgoings of £14 million really ought to be split up? £6 million is the takings. What part of the £14 million is properly charged against that £6 million and what part of the £14 million is concerned with the care and upkeep of what, after all, are ancient buildings, including the ancient custodians?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, the £14½ million refers to the care of the buildings and the staff—the upkeep and maintenance of the buildings and everything that goes with that. As my noble friend is well aware, there is such a thing as non-hypothecation and there are problems associated with that, although we are fighting that battle as well.
§ Lord SANDFORDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness what thought she is giving in these circumstances to supplementing the work of the full-time professional custodians with voluntary custodians and part-time custodians?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, there are other problems associated with that matter, of which the noble Lord will be aware. In some instances it is possible and in other instances it is a matter in which, quite understandably, the unions have a particular point to make.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend—I do so as something of an ancient monument myself—whether she will bear in mind that these ancient monuments are a vital part of British history and any attempt to 679 economise might be false economy if any of them are damaged or ruined?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I entirely agree.
§ Lord ROBBINSMy Lords, to what extent are the custodians in question industrially mobile? Are they of an age at which they are likely to get employment elsewhere?
§ Baroness BIRKNo, my Lords; this is one of the problems. On the whole, they are elderly men and women and it is difficult for them to get employment elsewhere. That is one of the reasons why I am trying to retain as many of them as possible. It is also true that for many of them it is very difficult to be mobile.
§ Lord FLETCHERMy Lords, may I assure the noble Baroness that we all appreciate her sympathetic approach to this matter and hope that this debate will strengthen her hand in dealing with her colleagues. But I think it is desirable to ask whether, in due course, she will publish for the benefit of all those interested the details of which monuments will be denuded of a custodian and which museums, such as Richborough, will find their contents moved elsewhere?
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords, I intend to do that. I shall be quite prepared, when I have sorted out this information, to publish it, because it is extremely important that this information should be available for guides, for the tourist authorities and boards. That is exactly what I want to do. Perhaps my noble friend will put down a Question for Written Answer at the appropriate time.
§ Lord PARRYMy Lords, before my noble friend does that and puts the figures into the record, could she spell "non-hypothecation" so that I may look it up in the dictionary?
§ Lord ENERGLYNMy Lords, I am anxious that this should not get out of hand. May I ask whether it is appreciated that, under ancient monuments, there could be repercussions regarding the protection of geological monuments, which could not be more ancient, of course? It could go in that direction and I am 680 rather anxious about it. May I ask the Minister for reassurance that it will be confined only to very narrow institutional situations?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I must confess that I am not completely sure that I heard or perhaps quite understood the point of the noble Lord's question. I wonder whether I might read it and write to him.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, with regard to the protection of certain ancient monuments, has the noble Baroness's Department thought fit to exchange details with the Home Office, so that the police may be informed of areas in question?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, with respect, I do not think that it affects this point. Where there is knowledge that there may be vandalism the police are automatically informed; but very often it is so far off the beaten track that I think that the Home Office would then tell me that there were not enough police for that to be done.