PORT OF LONDON AUTHORITY (Hansard, 15 June 1978)

§ Lord GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness STEDMAN
My Lords, since my report to the House on 8th May, the Port of London Authority have continued to keep my right honorable friend closely in touch with their urgent examination of their financial situation and of the various courses of action that might be taken to restore viability. He has been encouraged by the constructive and responsible manner in which all parties concerned have reacted to the propositions put forward by the Authority for consideration.
My right honorable friend believes that there is merit in letting the parties continue to discuss the steps that are needed with a view to reaching mutually acceptable solutions in so far as that may be possible. When firm proposals are received from the Authority, my right honorable friend will be in a position to complete consideration of the ways in which the Government might then assist.

§ Lord GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that this looks and sounds very much like the old drift that happened before and led to the loss of £50 million-odd continuing? Is she aware that the Authority, being a public trust authority, is in fact still trading in what would be, for a private enterprise undertaking, an insolvent position? Is she further aware that with the passage of every week the certainty grows that the Authority will end the year much more heavily in debt than it was when we discussed these increases? Am I not right in believing that the Minister has only two possible alternatives that the PLA can come up with?—one of which might just enable them to be viable, but only just, by 1980 and the other which most certainly could not. Both involve closures. Should not the noble Baroness now urge her right honorable friend—I know her position and indeed I have myself put many a spokesman here under that sort of restriction in the past—on behalf of us, that this cannot be allowed to drift simply because the unions, the Authority and the other agencies are just continuing to talk? This way lies still worse disaster than we have already met.

§ Baroness STEDMAN
My Lords, my right honourable friend, the Secretary of 513 State is quite satisfied that the PLA are not trading illegally. Yes, they have financial problems, but Lazard and Company have granted them a loan, or an overdraft, of £15 million which has a Government guarantee. Surely it is better that the two sides of the industry, the Authority and unions, should get round a table and try to go part way at least towards solving their problems, and see how much agreement there is between them so that they can come up eventually with propositions from the PLA which are likely to be acceptable to the workers in the industry as well. Surely it is better for them to take time and come up with the right propositions on which my right honorable friend can make the necessary recommendations to his Cabinet colleagues regarding the degree of Government intervention that may be necessary, than to rush into something hasty and perhaps land ourselves with very considerable industrial troubles.

§ Lord GEORGE-BROWN
My Lords, if that were the position I should, of course, be the first to accept it, but is it not over-simplistic to suggest that it is? Is not the position that any solution has to involve the closure, to be viable, of the two upper docks and, still to remain nonviable, to close one upper dock? Is it not impossible to expect the unions to come up voluntarily and recommend either of those propositions? Since we know those to be the only two alternatives, is it not right to press the Minister to accept now the responsibility that he will have to accept in the end when still more millions will have been lost?

§ Baroness STEDMAN
My Lords, I understand the PLA are continuing these consultations throughout this very difficult period they are going through. They are trying to come up with as much agreement as possible on the degree of closure, if any, that is necessary. Eventually the responsibility is on the Port of London Authority to make recommendations to the Minister. My information is that those recommendations are being made within a month, and your Lordships can take it from me that all the Ministers involved will then be moving very speedily to implement whatever has to be done.

§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTER
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say how long the Government have known of the financial situation and difficulties of the Authority and what, during that period, they have done about it?

§ Baroness STEDMAN
My Lords, Sir John Cuckney of the Port of London Authority advised my right honorable friend that there were financial problems and that there were certain ways out. The Government have known of the position for some months. They have been trying to see how they can have consultation with the union so that they can come to a proper agreement about the future of the Port of London Authority. But we have also to take into account the number of jobs at stake and the employment situation in the areas where the docks are. This is not just a question of what the Department of Transport can do for the Port of London Authority, but of what other Departments can do in the way of attracting industry and new jobs and of improving the Dockland area. This is where we hope for a lot more support from the Joint Docklands Committee.

Lord ORAM
My Lords, is it not important that the future of the upper docks should not be decided only on the balance-sheet considerations of the PLA, important though those are? May I ask my noble friend whether the Government will ensure that social costs—that is, the effect on the lives of the people of East London—will be taken fully into account when decisions are made on these matters?

§ Baroness STEDMAN
My Lords, of course that will be the attitude of the Government, but it would be premature for me to stand at this Box and give any undertaking that there will be no loss of jobs, no closure and no hardship to some of the people in the area. Whatever is the outcome of these discussions and of the recommendations of the Port of London Authority, it is people we are dealing with and it is people whom we must consider.

Lord MORRIS
My Lords, referring to the noble Baroness's original Answer, would she not agree that there was no suggestion whatever on the part of the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, that 515 the Port of London Authority were trading illegally? The suggestion was that they were trading while insolvent. In the light of that, may I ask the noble Baroness whether or not the Port of London Authority are trading insolvently at this moment?

§ Baroness STEDMAN
My Lords, they are trading with the backing of the £15 million which is available to them through Lazard and Company and which has a Government guarantee.