§ 7.4 p.m.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ê. —(Lord Wallace of Coslany.)
§ Clause 1 [The Co-operative Development Agency]:
§ Lord ROCHESTER moved the following Amendment:
§ Page 1, line 13, at end insert ("and with such other persons (if any) as appear to him appropriate.").
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not think that there is need for me to say very much in introducing this Amendment as the point it concerns was discussed in our debate on Second Reading 589 and was also the subject of an Amendment in somewhat similar terms which was put down by me during the Committee stage. That Amendment was withdrawn because I was advised by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, that in the Government's view it suffered from certain defects of what I think he called a "conceptual nature".
§ Anyway, it has been sought to remedy these in the Amendment which is now before your Lordships. Therefore, I very much hope that in its revised form it will prove generally acceptable to your Lordships. Its purpose is precisely the same as that of its predecessor; simply to record in the Bill the assurance which the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, was kind enough to give me on Second Reading, that prior to the appointment of the chairman and members of the Co-operative Development Agency, the Secretary of State's consultations would not necessarily or exclusively be restricted to people having some formal connection with the Co-operative Movement.
§ The only other thing I need to say now is that in Committee it was generally understood that an Amendment of this kind might he put down on Report rather than on Third Reading. The point has no significance in relation to this Amendment, but it has to another matter that might otherwise have been the subject of a further Amendment relating to the possibility of the Agency being empowered to make grants or loans for what might broadly be called educational purposes. Because of a procedural error, no doubt inadvertent, on the part of the Government at the conclusion of the Committee stage, the Bill before us has not, in fact, been discussed at all on Report; and apart from any other considerations, it is simply not now practicable for any such further Amendment even to be tabled.
§ In the circumstances I very much hope that when, at the appropriate point this evening, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, comes to speak rather more generally about the Bill before it is passed by your Lordships, he will at least be able to give me certain categorical assurances concerning what, under its powers, the Agency will be in a position to do in an educative way when it is set up. As to the Amendment now before us, I beg to move.
590§ 7.10 p.m.
Viscount LONGMy Lords, I think it is a question of if first you do not succeed, try, try, and try again. By all standards we were listening attentively to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, when suddenly we found a few days later that the Report stage had slipped by, and there we were into Third Reading, and we were all taken unawares. It was not just Lord Wallace's fault. We were all here. From all soundings that I have heard, the noble Lord has gone out of his way to help the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, over this Amendment. It is a perfectly reasonable Amendment, one which from this side of the House we would certainly agree to if it in any way helps the Bill and this position in Clause 1 of the Bill. We have no criticism of it, provided the Government are happy and the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, is happy. I hope that we can see it now into the Bill without any delay.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I will deal with the Report stage fiasco right away because, with all due respect, it is a lesson to all noble Lords. At the Committee stage I had before me a certain form of words. When the Committee stage was finished, much to my utter relief and thinking in terms of something to eat, I blindly used the form of words which, to my utter horror, I found later had abolished the Report stage. That caused me a great deal of concern. In fact, I thought that the authorities had made a mistake, but I have been duly chastened.
In point of fact it has a bit of a lesson for us all, because this little red book should have been in my possession in my pocket and I should have consulted it before I uttered that form of words. I know that ignorance of the law is no defence and I plead guilty, but I have a feeling that I had some associates who are to some extent guilty as well. I do not think that the loss of a Report stage has done much harm. I shall be making a statement at a later stage.
So far as the Amendment is concerned, the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, will certainly not be surprised when I tell him that the Government accept the Amendment, and arrangements have already been made for the Amendment in this House 591 to be dealt with in another place on Monday, when the whole matter should be finished very quickly indeed. To some extent there has been a gaining in time. The Government accept the Amendment, and I strongly recommend the House to do likewise.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, if it is appropriate I should like to thank the noble Viscount, Lord Long, and particularly perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, for what he has said. On reflection, I think it was less than gracious of me not to accept a measure of responsibility myself for this, because we were all present. I suppose it was up to me in some sense to say, "Stop what are we doing?". But for the rest, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace and to the noble Viscount, Lord Long, for taking the view they do of this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Bill read 3a.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I now beg to move that this Bill do now pass. This gives me an opportunity to say a few words about the Bill. During our consideration of this Bill in Committee last week I promised to report the outcome of certain discussions between my right honorable friend the Minister of State for Industry, Mr. Alan Williams, and the Liberal Party spokesman in another place, Mr. Wainwright. The subject of the discussion was broadly whether or not the powers of the Agency should be extended so that it would be able to finance educational activitities.
For one reason and another, of which the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, and I are only too well aware, the meeting did not take place until yesterday. In the event, after detailed discussion of the whole issue, it was agreed that it would not be possible to put down a suitable Amendment to alter the nature of the Agency in this way. The Minister of State undertook, however, that once the Agency is established he would bring to the chairman's attention the views on these additional aspects which have been expressed both in your Lordships' House and in another place.
The expectation would be that if the Agency feels itself to be unduly inhibited in carrying out its functions—and I 592 think particularly of the undertaking of studies and research—it would be able to make appropriate recommendations for the necessary changes to be made. The Minister also pointed out—and I believe that this was accepted by Mr. Wainwright—that as the Bill stands the Agency will be able to ask an outside body, such as a university, or perhaps the Co-operative College, to carry out paid studies, or research, as their agent. The Agency might wish to publish any useful material that resulted so as to promote a better understanding of co-operative principles.
It is not my intention to delay the House much longer, but I should like to conclude by thanking the House as a whole for the constructive way it has dealt with this important Bill. I would in particular thank the noble Viscount, Lord Long, and the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, for their valuable help in the passage of the Bill. In this Chamber there has been a fine spirit of co-operation on the Bill, and it has graced our proceedings here on all stages, and bodes well for the success of the Co-operative Development Agency
I am confident that your Lordships' House will wish to be associated with my own good wishes to it. This may to some be a small Bill, but in fact it is an important Bill which may lead to very favorable developments for the country as a whole as the Agency gets down to work. I wish it well. I am sure I can say that the whole House wishes it well, and I hope that the statement I have made will be acceptable to the noble Lord, Lord Rochester. We wish the Bill God speed on its way.
§ Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Wallace of Coslany.)
Viscount LONGMy Lords, may I say thank you to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, for his great help during Second Reading, Committee stage, and now in the third stage of this important Bill. I am sure we all hope that many will benefit from it, whether they be small groups or large groups. The Amendments we have made to the Bill have improved it. We have certainly given it a good airing and discussion. I enjoyed Lord Jacques' excellent speech at Second Reading, and there were one or two other notable contributions. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, for his 593 help both inside and outside the Chamber. I, too, from these Benches on behalf of my colleagues, wish the Bill well and hope that it will reach the Statute Book very soon.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, I should like to be associated with what the noble Viscount, Lord Long, has said, and also thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, in particular for the statement he made concerning the powers of the Agency in what I think might be called the educational sphere. We of course wish to study that statement closely, but my first reaction is a feeling that it has at any rate gone some way towards meeting the views expressed both by my honorable friend Mr. Richard Wainwright in another place and by me in your Lordships' House.
I was aware in other ways of the general content of the kind of thing that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, might find it possible to say, but I am grateful for that full expression of the Government's view. It enables me to respond in more agreeable terms than might otherwise have been the case, and that I gladly do.
I, too, wish to take this opportunity to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, the noble Viscount Lord Long, and others who, particularly on Second Reading, contributed to our discussion. As I said at an earlier stage—and this is really only echoing what Lord Wallace said a moment ago—this has been a good example of the way in which legislation can be introduced on a consensus basis. Come to think of it, what Bill could be more appropriate for such treatment than one concerned with co-operative development? I hope very much that in its amended form it will now be accepted by another place and that very soon it will find its way on to the Statute Book.
§ On Question, Bill passed and returned to the Commons.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until five minutes past eight o'clock.
§ Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
§ [The Sitting was suspended from 7.21 p.m. until 8.5 p.m.]