§ 3 p.m.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in regard to the recent announcements of massive aid to Zambia and in view of the large sums understood to be due to expatriate Britons working in Zambia, what steps they are taking to ensure that such overdue payments are honoured before further aid is remitted.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, current British capital aid to Zambia is designed specifically to relieve her shortage of foreign exchange. To withhold it until overdue payments were made would mean, in practice, that they would be delayed even longer and achieve, I am afraid, precisely the opposite effect to that intended by the noble Lord.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, if I correctly understood the noble Baroness, the Chief Whip, it would sound bad accounting, and the British Government ought to be particularly keen to give good accounting. Will the noble Baroness clarify the statements in the Press that there have been recent grants to Rhodesia, one of £15 million and one of £13 million, and at the time they were granted there was left over from the earlier grant of £10 million a certain amount unremitted?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I take it that the noble Lord was referring to Zambia. This is extremely complicated, because there have been different grants from us, the £15 million and £9 million previously, which was largely for agricultural development, and of course there is also the IMF loan of a very large sum in dollars. There is now going to be a World Bank consultation regarding more loans. It would weary the House if I were to go into the total details about these grants. Of course, I should be very glad to answer a Written or an oral Question about the individual grants in particular.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that at the time of independence, Zambia was left by the British Government tied to the Rhodesian economy, and that 12 months after independence Zambia was asked by the British Government to participate in economic sanctions against the illegal regime in Rhodesia? As a consequence, it is the Zambian people and Government who have been in the front line and who have suffered more than any other people as a consequence of the policy towards Rhodesia. We have an inescapable obligation to the people and Government of Zambia, and the amount of aid that has so far been provided hardly justifies the word "massive".
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend that Zambia were asked not merely by the British Government but by the United Nations, which carries international authority, to carry out the sanctions agreement. Zambia have suffered from the sanctions possibly even more than Rhodesia. That is absolutely true and I think the rest of an answer to my noble friend follows from that.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, the noble Baroness has been good enough to deal with this Question very fully and to tell us what help has been given. Nobody would disagree with her and that aid should be given in view of the fall in copper prices. This is understood by everybody. In view of what the noble Lord opposite said about our duties and obligations to the people of Zambia, do not the Government think that they have an overriding duty and obligation 319 to British subjects who are working in Zambia? Will the Government say what help they are giving to expatriates who are working in order to assist in the economic and social development of Zambia?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I entirely agree. Her Majesty's Government consider that Zambia is fulfilling her obligations, not merely to the British but to the world in general. The House knows well that the British Government are supplementing salaries to staff employed by the Zambian Government; we are doing everything we can to make present conditions known to the people who want to take up jobs in Zambia. We do everything we can to help them. The difficulty—as everybody knows—is that, as with most developing countries, the currency problem before Zambia is extremely difficult. I should like to remind the House that all countries have exchange controls, not mealy Zambia.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that answer. Would she undertake that if individual cases of hardship are submitted to her she will see that something is done for these people?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, we are very much aware of the individual difficulties. The problem is not of the money on which they have to live; the problem is of getting money out of Zambia, paid leave, gratuities, and that kind of thing. I am sure that the House understands that we consider the difficulties sympathetically. I must be quite frank and say that we are not proposing to go into the situation we did when people were thrown out of Uganda and left penniless.
§ Lord HEWLETTMy Lords, arising out of the reply, and not wishing to exert too much pressure upon the Zambian Government, would the noble Baroness bear in mind the fact that exports have been made to Zambia in good faith; that payments are due and that companies are able to make those payments but they are blocked by the Zambian Central Bank? It seems to me in common fairness that the British taxpayer with 320 one hand—say, perhaps, a British company—should not be paying additional aid when money properly due under contract has not been paid. I hope that the noble Baroness will exert every proper influence to see that fair trading returns to Zambia.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the British Government are aware of the money due to firms as well as to individuals. We are very much aware of this. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister had a long discussion with President Kaunda on this very subject when he was here. It is precisely because the Zambians do not have the currency which they can export that the IMF (which, everybody knows, is not in any way a soft loan kind of organisation) is helping, and that the World Bank have convened a conference consisting of over 20 countries and international organisations to deal with this precise situation. If Zambia were to succumb to her economic problems, it would do major harm to Africa and to the world. That is why we continue our aid.
§ Lord LOVATMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that President Mobutu is now reckoned to be the third richest man in the world? He has probably £70 million "stashed away" in Swiss banks. If people in his country need blankets, I think he might well put his hand in his own pocket.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am extremely interested in the remarks by the noble Lord about President Mobutu, but he has not much to do with Zambia.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that unless the Western manufacturing nations begin to take a more sympathetic interest in the problems which have been brought about by the fall of the copper prices to the Zambian people, it may well result in starvation of copper to our manufacturing industries?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, yes; and Zambia supplies one-third of the copper requirements of the United Kingdom.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, would not one of the best ways to help Zambia be to withdraw sanctions against Rhodesia and thereby help an internal settlement there?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I regard that as a rather simplistic approach to the situation. May I, wearing another "hat", point out to your Lordships that so far we have spent 20 minutes on three Questions? There is another Question which will interest the House and if I have the will of the House, may we pass on to that Question?