HL Deb 07 June 1978 vol 392 cc1226-9

3.2 p.m.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what directions or advice they have given to the Crown Agents for the Colonies as to the placing of contracts by them with companies blacklisted by the Government for alleged breaches of Government Pay Policy; and whether they will publish in the Official Report the text of the instructions or advice given to the Crown Agents, and the names of the companies involved.

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, the Crown Agents have been asked not to place orders with companies breaching the pay policy guidelines when making purchases on behalf of the Government and to take Government policy into account in the placing of contracts on their own behalf. They do not apply this policy when acting on behalf of their overseas principals. The correspondence with the Crown Agents is confidential. The Government are prepared to publish the names of firms against whom discretionary action is being taken, but only if the firms consent.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that very revealing Answer, may I ask her, first of all, whether it is in accordance with precedent that directions by the Government to a statutory body of this kind are published? Why is it not being done in this case? Secondly, does it not follow that in certain cases the Crown Agents will not be able to help overseas purchasers by selecting the most economical supplier for them, since the most economical supplier may be banned and on the black list? Will that not put the Crown Agents into a position of competitive difficulty?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

No, my Lords. To answer the last part of the question first, the Government have repeatedly made it clear that the discretionary powers are discretionary and that all circumstances will be taken into account; both the circumstances of the developing country and, of course, the national interest. Therefore, the answer is, No, to the last part of the question. As to the first part, it is not in accordance with general practice. In fact, the information in this particular case concerns the machinery of government, which it has never been the practice of any Government to reveal.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, on the last point, which was mentioned first by the noble Baroness, if this guidance or direction is to have any effect at all, it must mean that the Crown Agents are inhibited from placing contracts where, for commercial reasons, they would wish. Therefore, why does the noble Baroness still contend that this is not harming them and their clients in competition?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

Because, my Lords, there is absolutely no evidence that it is doing harm. We have no evidence of that. Further, I am quite sure that the House will understand that firms which break the Government's guidelines cannot expect support, because then the Government would be financing breaches of their own policy.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, I do not want to press the noble Baroness too far, but it is not here a question of Government support; it is a question of whether a Government agency is giving the best possible service to overseas buyers. May I suggest that, if it is restricted in its discretion in choosing where it places those orders, the degree of service which it renders must be diminished.

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, I have explained that this does not apply when the overseas Governments are the principals. We are not asking the Crown Agents to apply it then. What we are asking them to do is to look at it when orders are being placed by the Crown Agents themselves. All Government Departments would look at breaches of the guidelines in the same way.

Earl FERRERS

My Lords, can the noble Baroness explain whether the Crown Agents are a Government Department? If they are not a Government Department, are they obliged to carry out the requests of the Government?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, I think the House knows that the Crown Agents are not a Government Department, but they are subject to direction from the Ministry of Overseas Development.

Lord TANLAW

My Lords, since the noble Baroness mentioned the black list, and that companies need not have their names on it, may I ask whether there is a list available as to companies which are on the black list, and, if so, where it can be found?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, I think the noble Lord misunderstood me. What the Government decided, after consulting all the interested parties, was that if any body had been subject to discretionary powers and they wanted their names to be published they could be, but not unless they wanted them to be.

The Earl of ONSLOW

My Lords, is the noble Baroness saying that overseas principals of the Crown Agents are allowed to buy cheaper produce in the event of that company producing that cheaper produce breaching the pay pause, but that the British taxpayer may not do that and may have to buy something more expensive because they do not pay and are not so efficient?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, firms which have breached the guidelines are more likely to be selling expensive equipment.