§ 3.23 p.m.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they now have for recognition of the de facto Administration of Rhodesia.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the Government have no plans for recognition of any Administration in Rhodesia until there has been a return to legality following a genuine transfer of power under a settlement that is acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that that reply is disappointing? I had looked forward, in pursuit of the exchange of views in this House two weeks ago, to his being able today to give some new information. Is it not plain that the British Government 945 policy is every [...] weakening the position of the [...] black majority de facto Administration of Rhodesia; and that, secondly, it also weakens and encourages confrontation which will generate carnage such as we have seen elsewhere in Africa? Mr. Nkomo declines invitation to join his internal compatriots.
May I ask three points. First, does it not seem that the Government agencies which they encourage externally are financed by Russia and that the Russian resources for disruption are unlimited? Secondly, are not the five points in the Kissinger agreement already confirmed? Thirdly, do all individuals, black or white, in Rhodesia who are entitled to British passports have unrestricted entry into the United Kingdom?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord would be advised to put his last point as a separate question because it would take some time and detail to reply to it. As to the second point, I am sure his disappointment will not supersede our friendship. It is my fate to disappoint him ideologically, but I hope that he will agree that we may politically deplore and personally rejoice. As to the question of how far the Salisbury agreement meets the Five, or possible Six, Principles, I have already said (as my right honourable friend said in another place) that they are seriously deficient. We have constantly said that if they substantially met the requirements of the Anglo-US proposals—that is, the Five, possibly Six, Principles—then indeed we would join the noble Lord in welcoming them. But that is not the position.
As to the attitude of the Patriotic Front, what we know is that the Patriotic Front have accepted the principle of free and fair elections and have said that they will attend a round table conference, with far fewer reservations than, I fear, the Salisbury régime through Mr. Smith has already stated. As to the point whether Russia is financing or promoting disturbances in Rhodesia, all I would say is that Africa is not the opportunity for self-interested disturbances by any Power in Europe. We have constantly warned that external intervention in any part of Africa is a very dangerous thing indeed. 946 The noble Lord's point relating to the Salisbury agreement I covered when replying to his second point.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, in view of the time which has elapsed—and it seems that the noble Lord's right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary made optimistic statements about progress—is there any assurance at all that Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe are likely to come to some agreement with any members of the Rhodesian Administration? Is the noble Lord aware that those of us who perhaps are not so well conversant with the nature of this problem and are merely interested spectators, but anxious nevertheless for a settlement, are beginning to think—I would not rate it higher than a thought—that we might have to rely on a de facto or alleged de facto Administration rather than wait for a long period of time before the substance of a reasonable agreement is realised?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have, of course, very great respect indeed for my noble friend's views. I would ask him to reconsider the last point he made: whether we could, without serious risk, recognise a de facto Administration. We should be operating against the unanimous view of the continent of Africa and, indeed, the pretty unanimous view on the rest of the world, and in an adverse sense, if we took that step. I merely ask him to think over that one. As to the question of progress, I believe that since the Graham-Low Mission began its tour of capitals and persons there has been perceptible, if small, progress towards bringing the parties closer together. Mr. Graham has returned and we are talking to him. It is possible that Mr. Graham and Ambassador Low will return to South Africa to continue their task of bringing the various parties together.
As to my noble friend's suggestion about Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe, they have understandably so far said that they will not join the Salisbury régime. They have also made—and this is of importance—two points: that they are both in favour of fair and free elections and, indeed, in favour of a transitional period presided over by an administrator. It may be a resident commissioner, as 947 we have suggested. Finally, they have said that they will attend a round table conference, and, as I see it, with far fewer reservations at this stage than the Salisbury régime, through Mr. Smith, have stated.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, is it not a fact that, whatever the reasons, recognition of the de facto régime in Salisbury would necessarily imply the immediate unilateral lifting of sanctions by this country, which is surely something that, in view of our international obligations, we would be unable to do?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble Lord spells out the second part of the observation that I made in regard to the dangers of launching into such a policy. I said that it would be against the background not only of opinion in Africa but also world wide opinion which is pretty unanimous on this. By that means, as he rightly said, decisions of the United Nations are binding on this country as on others.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I wonder whether I might follow something which the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, said. On a number of occasions now over the past few weeks the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, has said that progress is being made over the Anglo-American agreement. Would he not agree that the situation in Rhodesia is deteriorating very rapidly, and something is needed now more than vague promises of progress? Could he give us an indication of when some concrete proposals are going to be made?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, nobody is making promises of progress. This is a desperately dangerous and difficult situation. What we have said is that there is a slow, perceptible progress as a result of the dual mission of Ambassador Low and Mr. Graham. It is my duty to measure my words and I have tried to do so. It is very slow but perceptible, and added that they may well return. Nobody can guarantee progress. If we could have done so, then we would have done it in the past 11 years where so many opportunities of doing a little of the right thing were thrown away by Smith and his régime.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, relating to the first reply of the Minister when he referred to elections, since we are, as my noble Leader has just said, galloping towards the dangerous confrontation, cannot something be done—and I was hoping my noble Leader would say it—o regarding the excellent recommendation of the noble Baroness, Lady Vickers, recently that the Government should do something to assist the holding of elections and counter the inevitable intimidation which is endemic to Africa?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there will be no complaints about any appeal or abjuration to the British Government so long as an equally strong appeal is made to the Smith Government.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, would my noble friend accept that this whole House—indeed, the whole of our nation—is facing a terrible and horrific prospect during the next few weeks while we are in Recess? Whatever policy is followed, there will be hundreds—maybe thousands—of British citizens, black and white, who will be murdered in the most terrible way. Would he agree that one mitigating attempt could be made to assist the British Government in this terrible responsibility? That would be if the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues were to agree with their official Conservative spokesman on foreign affairs that the internal settlement in Rhodesia is no longer credible to the Rhodesian people, rather than misleading their friends in Rhodesia that there may be some other way out; that is, to give their full support on a bipartisan basis to the proposals that Her Majesty's Government have made for a joint conference.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I hope and believe that nobody is trying to mislead anybody. I hope that the substantially bipartisan approach which has characterised the attitude of both Houses of Parliament and the people of this country to this very dangerous situation for many years now will be maintained. I hope that in any criticism that arises about the shortcoming of the British Government we will cast our minds back over 11 years over the not inconsiderable deficiencies of the illegal régime which is the one that is responsible for the situation which we now are in.
§ The Marquess of SALISBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord now aware that this very serious process of intimidation, being carried out by the followers of Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe, is directed to preventing progress towards majority rule for their own reasons? In view of what he said about their acceptance of a free election, can he also say what prospects he sees of having a free election so long as they are carrying out this process of intimidation?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSThe present situation, my Lords, I fear may continue until all parties are equally prepared to come to a round table conference to arrange free elections and a proper transitional stage. I repeat that the Patriotic Front have said that they are willing to do this. Let the rest of us, including the Salisbury régime, take them at their word and come together in such a meeting to arrange precisely what the noble Marquess has been asking about; that is, free and fair elections.