HL Deb 27 July 1978 vol 395 cc973-9

3 Clause 37, page 14, leave out lines 29 to 35.

4 Clause 37, page 14, leave out line 37.

5 Clause 37, page 14, leave out line 42.

6 Clause 48, page 19, leave out lines 29 and 30.

7 Schedule 2, page 52, leave out lines 20 to 49.

8 Schedule 2, Page 54, leave out lines 2 to 38.

9 Schedule 2, Page 63, leave out lines 35 to 38.

10 Schedule 6, page 64, leave out line 14.

11 Schedule 6, page 64, leave out line 16.

12 Schedule 10, page 71, leave out lines 35 to 45.

13 Schedule 11, page 84, leave out lines 13 to 28.

14 Schedule 11, Page 85, leave out lines 12 to 31.

The Commons disagreed with the above Amendments but propose the following Amendments in lieu thereof:

15 Page 52, leave out lines 20 and 21.

16 Page 52, leave out line 30 and insert— 'and 13. The functions under section 14 except so far as exercisable in relation to property held by or on behalf of the Assembly or by a company all of whose shares are so held or by a wholly owned subsidiary of such a company. The functions under section 19(7) and (8).'

17 Page 54, line 22, leave out 'paragraphs 16(3) and 48' and insert 'paragraph 16(3)'.

18 Page 54, line 22, leave out lines 26 to 31 and insert— 'The functions under paragraphs 46 to 50 of Schedule 3 so far as exercisable by virtue of representations made by excepted statutory undertakers. The powers under paragraph 53 of Schedule 3 so far as their exercise is incidental to functions which remain exercisable by a Minister of the Crown.'

19 Transfer lines 22 on page 52 to 38 on page 54 to Part VIII of Schedule 2 to the Bill.

20 Page 84, line 28, at end insert— '(3) The Welsh Assembly shall publish each report received by it under this paragraph.'

21 Page 85, line 13, leave out In section 3(1)(e)' and insert (1) In subsection (1)(e) of section 3'

22 Page 85, line 16, at end insert— '(2) At the end of subsection (8) of that section there shall be added the words"; and the Welsh Assembly shall publish every report made to it under that provision." '.

4.40 p.m.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on their Amendments Nos. 3 to 14, to which the Commons have disagreed, and doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 15 to 22 in lieu thereof. These Amendments relate to the relationship between the Assembly, the Welsh Development Agency and the Development Board for Rural Wales. The proposals in the Bill that they should be devolved to the Assembly if the Amendments that were moved by the Opposition were sustained, mean that responsibility would be reserved. If the Amendments to the Lords Amendments are now agreed, it would result in devolving responsibility for the Agency and the Board. There are also some minor technical changes to the original entries in the Bill constituted by the Government's Amendments.

The Government's view remains that responsibility should be devolved, but a very important change has been made in another place, and I concede that this is partly the result of views expressed in your Lordships' House. Amendments Nos. 24 to 28 to Clause 60 of the Bill mean that neither of those two bodies—the Welsh Development Agency or the Development Board for Rural Wales—may be "subsumed" (that seems to be a fashionable piece of jargon these days; "taken over" is perhaps as good a phrase as any) or "taken over" by the Assembly without both Houses of Parliament agreeing by Affirmative Resolution to that being done.

Therefore, I think that the major fear that influenced the minds of those who originally voted for reservation has been met by this change, to which I shall be returning formally when we consider the Amendments to Clause 60. In those circumstances, again I hope that the view that the Government have taken about this matter will satisfy your Lordships that this is a reasonable course to take. I beg to move.

Moved, That this House doth not insist on their Amendments Nos. 3 to 14, to which the Commons have disagreed, and doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 15 to 22 in lieu thereof.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, I should say straight away that there is no question of confrontation on this matter; nor even of being in total agreement with the Commons in what they have done. Nevertheless, from these Benches I think that we shall be prepared to accept their Amendments, which is putting it in a slightly different way. We shall have no conflict over the Amendments which the Commons have put forward. However, I join my noble friend Lord Elton in saying that it is quite impossible to debate these particular Amendments with any sense. Today I went into the House of Lords Library only to find that there is not even a galley proof of the debate of last night in another place. I really do not see how we, on this side of the House, can be expected to do any reasonable work without even having a document on what was debated in another place.

In view of the general feeling of bonhomie and the fact that we are drawing to an end after having debated these somewhat unpalatable Bills, I did not want to introduce a note of sourness. But it is fair to say that when we were debating the Wales Bill very late into the night, we were most appreciative of the effort made personally by the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, to ensure that a galley proof of our debates was available in the Library of the House of Lords early the following morning. We very much appreciated the personal effort that she made to ensure that we, on this side of the House, should know what had been said and be able to refer to it when we were considering our Amendments and the procedures. So I wish to make only a mild protest, but nevertheless a protest, that no effort was made to provide that even a galley copy of the debate in another place was laid in the Library of your Lordships' House. I should also point out, of course, that the Hansard of yesterday only goes up to the middle of the debate on Clause 12. So what we are now discussing, or having the possibility of discussing, has not been available in any form.

Having said all that, of course we realise that we have lost this Amendment, and perhaps before the noble and learned Lord puts the Question he might be kind enough to tell us what was the vote on this Amendment, because I am not aware of the results. There has been no publication of the voting on these particular Amendments which went from your Lordships' House to another place. We recognise the reasons why these Amendments have been rejected. After all, the arguments have been put forward, both in your Lordships' House several times and in another place, and we accept that a vote in another place has decided to reject our Amendments. Nevertheless, I think that there has been some slight improvement on their return from the Commons, so it has not all been in vain; there has been the addition in Amendments Nos. 20 and 22 that reports shall be published by the Welsh Assembly on matters which have been dealt with by the Welsh Development Agency and the Development Board for Rural Wales, I think that this is a slight improvement which we recognise. Anyway, we are grateful for this slight modification of the original Bill.

I was not quite sure whether the noble and learned Lord was intending to speak again on Clause 60, or whether he said all that he was going to say on that.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I am afraid that there is just a little to add. I simply want to refer also to the intervention of the Secretary of State, which is provided for in the provisions in regard to Clause 60. That is merely a further improvement, but it is not of great substance.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that intervention. Clearly it is a matter which concerns these particular bodies. Like him, I would also just touch on this matter while I am dealing with the others. We are also grateful to another place for having put in this particular Amendment to Clause 60 which, to some extent, allays the fears of my Party in this place and in another place.

But at least no statutory body can be "taken over"—if I may use a more acceptable phrase than the word "subsumed" which I find thoroughly objectionable both as a literary term or in any other way—without the matter having been brought before Parliament. As they are statutory bodies, I think that that is the proper way in which to proceed. We are grateful for at least the modification again in Clause 60. With those words, from this side of the House I merely say that we shall not object to the Amendments put forward by the Commons.

Lord LLOYD of KILGERRAN

My Lords, in the spirit of non-confrontation in which we find ourselves, may I at once agree with the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, in her mild protest about the unavailability of what was said in the other place as regards these matters.

In pursuing my studies and researches on the Wales Bill, I had no assistance whatever and, therefore, I also did not find the galley proof which I had expected to find and which had been provided in other circumstances by the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, in this matter.

In those circumstances my tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, is even higher than it would have been. I should like to say how much she has impressed the House, myself and these Benches by the vast amount of work that she has done in connection with the Amendments she has tabled. May I conclude by saying how much we value her contribution to the debate.

Lord DAVIES of LEEK

My Lords, from this side of the House, in one minute. may I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Elles. In those congratulations may I also include, as I did the other day, the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and those on the other side of the House who have obviously improved this Bill by their labours.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, it may well be that the subsequent matters which we have to discuss will give an ultimate opportunity for the usual courtesies. Otherwise there will be an embarras de courloisie if we go on at this rate. There was a certain Bishop who went to some function on one occasion and he was so flattered by the observations that he said, "I have heard of the milk of human kindness, but this is the first time that I have met the cow." However, that is a very ungallant observation on my part.

I apologise for the fact that the galleys of the proceedings in another place where not available. The relevant part of the proceedings took place after midnight. Their absence is not due to any lack of concern or courtesy on my part. I am grateful to noble Lords who have struggled on—and this not for the first time—with consideration of these matters without the full assistance that would have been welcome.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her acknowledgement that, at any rate from her point of view, there has been improvement, and I think from the point of view of the Bill there has been improvement in this part of it by reason of the changes made in another place, which I now invite your Lordships to accept.

On Question, Motion agreed to.