LORDS AMENDMENT IN LIEU (Hansard, 27 July 1978)

§ The LORD CHANCELLOR
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 29 to which the Commons have disagreed, and doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 30 in lieu thereof. This related to the question of admission of the public to meetings of the Assembly. We indicated in earlier debates on this matter that we thought it unnecessary to make express provision in the Bill for the public to be admitted to meetings of the Welsh Assembly because we thought it was inconceivable that the Assembly would shut the public out other than in exceptional circumstances.
However, noble Lords took a different view and thought that there should he a statutory provision, and the effect of their intervention was the provision that standing orders shall include provision for the admission of the public to meetings of the Assembly and of its committees. That gave the impression that there could not be circumstances in which the public could be excluded, but it is conceded that there could be such occasions when there should be meetings in private. The Amendment which has been moved in another place reads: The standing orders shall include provision as to the circumstances in which the public may be admitted to meetings of the Assembly and of its committees. It is really only a drafting Amendment to achieve a purpose which noble Lords on the opposite side really had in mind. I beg to move.

§ Lord ELTON
My Lords, when I recall the vehemence with which the Government resisted the original introduction of this principle by my noble friend Lord Swansea, I am sure that he will agree with me that this is a significant concession on their part and we are glad to welcome it. When we recognise that this is the end of a quite impressive list of concessions by Her Majesty's Government, 28 in all, and when we consider also that on two occasions the other place has agreed on a Division to Amendments your Lordships put into the Bill in this House, it is clear that this House is in fact assisting the other place to carry out its functions.
Perhaps those honourable Members who—rather like train spotters—laboriously count the numbers of hereditary Peers who vote through the Lobbies on each occasion when the Government are beaten in a Division in this House will recall also that if those Peers had not so voted those self-same Members of another place would have been denied any opportunity to open their mouths at all in support of the interests of those who elected them on a whole range of important issues.
They may also reflect that on several occasions decisions arrived at in this House, by the means to which they object, were taken on subjects which they had themselves never discussed, and that the decisions that we then arrived at were such that they actually agreed to them, either individually and tacitly themselves by their support of Government concessions, or twice, as I said, on a vote. I do not want to make too much of this because my noble friend Lord Ferrers has already done it much better than I can. What I would say, since we are now at the end of this whole exercise, is that I do not know what other noble Lords think but I have protested frequently at the onset of exhaustion and the pre-occupation that drove everything else out of one's life but Wales, but I must say on reflection that I enjoyed it. I think that your Lordships probably have 982 done so as well. I think that we have achieved changes in the Bill that are worthwhile.
Since it is the end of term one has to say nice things about the prefects even if they have given us a lot of extra work, and many of us have been impressed by the efficiency with which noble Lords and noble Baronesses opposite have worked, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, who has worked very hard: so hard, indeed, that she has become unwell. We do sympathise with her on this. The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, saw the danger signs and left the country for a short time to recover. I thought that others had too, but I see that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has rejoined us for the last phases of Speech Day. What we have done I think we have done in a spirit of good will not only towards each other but also towards the Welsh, and I hope that that is the note on which we can conclude.

§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRAN
My Lords, the last Amendment put forward by the Government indicates the advantage of having full discussions on a Bill in this House. The Amendment leaves to the Welsh Assembly the circumstances of admission of the public, and that seems to me to be the right and commonsense view. As I have said before, this Bill has one great merit above all others in spite of its imperfections: it gives the people of Wales the greatest opportunity they have had for centuries of having an elected body to speak for them.
Bearing in mind the fear of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that there may be an embarrass—if that is the correct pronunciation—of courtesies at the conclusion of this debate, may I presume to conclude by thanking all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on the Wales Bill, and who have in their own way put forward so sincerely, sometimes very resolutely, their contributions in the interest of the people of my country.

§ Lord SKELMERSDALE
My Lords, I hope it will not be considered presumptious of me if I make a brief comment on the Bill before it leaves your Lordships' House and reaches the Statute Book. I 983 hold the unusual view on this side of the House that there will be a Welsh Assembly. I, with my very limited experience of matters in this House, have been deeply impressed by the very full answers the Government team gave to the various Amendments that were tabled. I would only express the hope that copies of our debates in the Official Reports of both Houses will be presented to every officer and Member of the Assembly, which I am sure will come into being.

§ The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones)
My Lords, this discussion now draws the final curtain on the debates on the Wales Bill. I do not suppose many bouquets will be thrown in our direction, but I am happy to thank all who have taken part in this important and difficult discussion. On my own side of the House, I am deeply grateful to my four colleagues. Unlike the debates on the Scotland Bill, there was a paucity of peers from the Principality, and indeed in the quintet I had the honour of being the only Welshman, which perhaps accounts for the fact that possibly I spoke more frequently than any of my team. However, I am grateful to them.
Indeed, I am grateful to noble Lords in all parts of the House—on the Back Benches, on the Government side, on the Opposition side and indeed on the Liberal side—and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, does not think I was meaning to affront him when he did not quite catch my eye the other night. I certainly did not mean that, and I am glad that, nevertheless, he made a contribution today. To the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, hwyl has been manifested by him from time to time, and it has been good to hear the stentorian celtic voice of my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek from time to time, as well at the voices of other noble Lords. Then, on the Government side, the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Elles—

A noble Lord
On the Government side?

§ Baroness ELLES
Yes, my Lords, in October.

§ The LORD CHANCELLOR
Na, na, no, no, my Lords. On the Opposition 984 side, I am second to none in my admiration of the contribution of the noble Baroness on some most technical and difficult matters, and of course of the leadership of Lord Elton and other colleagues of his. Lord Elton must have been an entertaining schoolmaster; the flood of pictorial language and prose that accumulated as the debates went on proved that. Alas, this has now come to an end.
The Cross-Benches should not be overlooked on this occasion, and in particular the noble and learned Lord and my friend and fellow countryman Lord Morris of Borth-y-Gest: diolch yn fawl annwyl gyfaill; we speak to each other only in Welsh, though I am told that is out of order—we may need instantaneous interpretation in your Lordships' House, but not yet. My Lords, thank you.