§ 2.57 p.m.
§ Lord THOMASMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to alleviate the growing congestion of road traffic in British cities.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the solution to traffic problems must be found locally, and it is for the local authorities to adopt the appropriate measures. A very wide range of powers is available to them, which in most places should be adequate.
§ Lord THOMASMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that courteous and ingeniously non-committal reply, may I ask her whether it is not nationally quite unsatisfactory for there to be such a high unemployment rate while coincidentally there are so many opportunities available for gainful work to improve traffic facilities, local, urban and even suburban?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I accept that we all deplore a high rate of unemployment, but traffic management policies would not make a very great impact on the number of unemployed. What might perhaps make some impact on the number of unemployed would be if we were to continue with an extensive 857 urban road development programme. But our policy White Paper, which was issued last year from the Department of Transport, made it quite clear that we have no intention of returning to the very high level of road building which this country had in the late 'sixties. Some urban road building will continue to be required to complement comprehensive traffic management schemes in certain areas, but each of these proposals will have to be assessed on its merits. We shall have to bear in mind what are the financial costs of carrying out any new urban road building, and what are the environmental costs. Some urban road building schemes will be going on, but not to the extent that we had in the 'sixties and the early 'seventies.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is absolutely obvious that no relief of congestion on the roads can come about unless we de-Beechingise the policy of the railways and get more goods back on to the railways? It could be done—the United States has started doing it. Finally, is my noble friend aware that Aristides was stoned to death for sitting on the fence? At least I am delighted to see that the Opposition are now showing their political colours.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, so far as the first part of my noble friend's question is concerned, of course it is the policy of the Department of Transport to get as much goods traffic moved by rail as is possible in order to relieve congestion on the roads. So far as the rest of the question is concerned, that is for Members opposite to answer, and not for me.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm that it is still the policy of her Department to build roads to by-pass historic towns, particularly, to take the traffic away from the centres?
§ Baroness STEDMANYes, my Lords; that is still the policy of the Department. It seems to have met with general approval that, instead of having very wide wedges of motorways cutting across our country, we should do what we can to alleviate the suffering in the smaller towns by building roads to by-pass them. That 858 is the policy of the Department, and will continue to be so.
Lord BALOCHMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that a reduction of the Rolls-Royces of the Benches opposite would ease the congestion?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I had not noticed any degree of increase in the number of Rolls-Royce cars outside in our car park.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that one of the major factors of traffic in cities is the movement of pedestrians, especially in the bigger cities like London? Would she ask the Department of Transport to give closer attention to the need for underpasses for pedestrians because this would have an even more dramatic effect than building new roads?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I will ask the Department to bear in mind the comments of the noble Lord. We encourage pedestrianisation within city centres where we can. I know that that is not the only place where pedestrians are at risk. We do what we can so far as road safety is concerned and we include in our toad safety policy pedestrians as well as motorists.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, will my noble friend reject utterly and with contempt—and I say this without any offence to the noble Lord—the suggestion in the supplementary question that pedestrians should he shoved underground whereas the owners of motor cars can have their own way?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords, I would not reject absolutely the suggestion of putting pedestrians underground if that is the safest way of getting them moving from one point to another. We certainly do not intend to make pedestrians second-class citizens.
§ Lord MERRIVALEMy Lords, as the little Question of my noble friend Lord Thomas asked, "what steps are being taken to alleviate the growing congestion of road traffic in British cities?" —and I have in mind London—and as the noble Baroness is not able to tell us what steps are being taken, will she not agree 859 that at the moment there is indiscriminate parking in London and that grave congestion is caused, particularly in the summer months, by coaches from all parts abroad? Will she ask the authorities concerned to look to see what the city of Paris is doing in regard to underground, below-street, parking which would alleviate this problem of traffic flow in London in particular?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the question of parking and traffic control is a matter for the local authorities. I accept that in our great cities, in London and other conurbations, there are problems of congestion. Various studies are going on. So far as London is concerned, the Greater London Council does its own monitoring of what is happening. There are apparently some deteriorations in traffic in London. There are a number of reasons for this. Perhaps the appalling weather of this summer has not helped. We have had extra traffic from tourists generated by the Jubilee and since, and there have been a number of road alterations and road openings by statutory undertakers. The 1977 figures have recently been reported to the Greater London Council, who have only just got preliminary results. We have not had time to study them in depth. They will be studied and we do encourage the local authorities to have proper traffic management schemes.
§ Lord BOOTHBYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether, in an attempt to solve the transport problem, the Government themselves would make a serious attempt to improve our railway system, which remains the worst in Europe?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I would not accept the last comment for a moment. We give what encouragement we can to the British Railways Board, and their achievements over the last 18 or 24 months have been quite surprising.
§ Earl HOWE—the removal of bus lanes which are interfering with traffic flow and which are not generally observed by the mass of the motoring public?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, again that is a matter for the local authorities.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, with the indulgence of the noble Lord the Leader of the House, may I make this fifth attempt to ask the Minister whether, with regard to alleviation of this problem, it is to be understood that there is in contemplation by the Government any intention to slant guidance towards mitigating some categories of heavy lorries that are circulating everywhere, often to the detriment of roads and buildings?
§ Baroness STEDMANYes, my Lords, it is the Government's policy to get those heavy loads, where possible, back on to the railways.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I think we have gone into this very thoroughly. I hope the House will agree with me.