§ 3.34 p.m.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, with the permission of the House, I wish to repeat an Answer to a Private Notice Question being given by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence in another place. The Answer is as follows:
§ "Attempts to persuade the workforce at the Royal Naval Armament Depot, Coulport, to resume normal working have not yet succeeded, although I naturally hope that an early settlement can be achieved. To ensure that our contribution to the Alliance strategic deterrent is maintained the Government must ensure that preparations for HMS 'Revenge' to sail are completed very soon. We are therefore today informing the workforce that naval and management personnel will complete the loading of HMS 'Revenge', starting tomorrow, and that in the interests of safety the Depot will be closed temporarily to all except certain specially authorised personnel from 26th July until the loading has been completed. As regards 'Repulse' and 'Renown' there is as yet no operational problem, although I shall of course keep the situation under review."
§ My Lords, that is the end of the Answer.
793§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think the Government are quite right. It must be the prime duty of the defence policy of a Government to keep the nuclear deterrent in action. Would the noble Lord not agree that it is really totally intolerable that union leaders should set themselves up as the arbiters of whether or not it is necessary that there should be a British nuclear deterrent at sea? Would the noble Lord be good enough also to tell the House whether the industrial unrest in the other dockyards is likely to lead to further trouble for other ships in the Royal Navy and, if so, what the Government intend to do about it?
On a domestic matter, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House this: my noble friend Lady Vickers has had a Question down on this subject for some time. A Member of another place put down a Private Notice Question at the last moment, which was accepted in another place. Because a Member of another place put down that Private Notice Question, my noble friend was not allowed to hear the Answer to her Question, or to have the right to ask the first supplementary in this House. I do not believe that is the right procedure. All it would have meant would have been that another place would have heard the same Statement 50 minutes later. I hope very much that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will look into this because, if I may say so, I do not think it is fair on my noble friend.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, may I just say that the Statement was agreed with the usual channels. That is the procedure. I had hoped that the noble Baroness would be able to put questions directly to my noble friend, and I am sure she will.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, I should like,—
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, may I first reply to the first two points made by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition—
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, if I may continue, along with the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, I welcome the Government's determination to tackle this extremely serious problem, because it 794 is a matter which has shocked the whole country. We really are in the land of make-believe if this sort of thing can continue. The laughter in the Kremlin must be considerable. This is so serious that I think the Government should have all-Party consultations in order to get the backing of all the forces in this country who really want to see some semblance of order and sanity in our defence preparations.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Mackie. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, asked me whether the situation was not intolerable. The answer is: Yes it is, and we are not tolerating it. As regards the other dockyards, that is a wider question. I understand that the Joint Co-ordinating Committee for Government Industrial Establishments is willing to discuss with the trade union side any alternative proposals made for settlement in this area of Polaris missiles and, of course, in other areas in the dockyards.
I think the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, expresses the feeling of the House as a whole and indeed the feeling outside this House, that the situation is of such significance that a common view should be expressed on the problem we are facing at the moment.
§ Lord GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, if I may, I should like to join in the welcome that has been given to the Government's taking of this action, and I do so both as a Member of this House and as an official of the union concerned for a long, long time. May I ask the Minister whether he would agree that these things are never done, even when they have to be done, without a great deal of delicacy and risk being involved? May I therefore put it to him: Is it not better that anything that we might all have wanted to say had he not made that Statement today should not now be said, in order that we do not stir up more trouble following the decision, since the Government have courageously made the right decision?
May I further put it to him, having heard Mr. Mick Martin on television last night, who said that if there were ever an emergency of course the Glasgow shop stewards would have met—could 795 we just remind him, as I once put before the Lower House, that the nuclear warning in those days was four minutes and nobody ever heard of a Glasgow shop stewards' meeting coming to any decision—they would soon be up there!
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his very wise comments.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for replying to my Question on the Statement. Can he tell us what is the basis of the dispute? Is it solely about pay, or is it also about length of hours? As my noble friend Lord Carrington said, there is unrest not only in this dockyard but in other dockyards, so we should welcome Government discussion with officials and others, in order to see that we do not have trouble elsewhere.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is a dispute based on pay. There is nothing more sinister than that.