LORDS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 25 July 1978)

§ Baroness BIRK

My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 1 to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason numbered 2. As the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has just pointed out, this Amendment is the new clause which the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, moved on Report to attempt to provide for grants to national and voluntary bodies. At the time, I said that the clause went beyond the Money Resolution on the Bill and that it would not be acceptable in another place. The noble Lord was not content on that occasion to accept my advice, but as it turned out, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has just said, what I said about another place proved correct. A number of comments were made about this clause and the Government's attitude to it, and I think that I should briefly make clear our views, particularly because the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has herself raised the matter again.

The Money Resolution refers to other Acts of Parliament and not to this Bill. Therefore, the Amendment could not have been accepted. If the noble Baroness will look at the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, she will see that all the financial provisions come under the powers of other Acts, and there is no special financial provision for this Bill. We believe that there are ample powers to aid voluntary bodies within the Bill as it is at present, and under the powers of previous Acts of Parliament. I should now like to explain what I mean by that, and I hope that it will be the last time that we clarify our views on this matter.

798 First, the clause is unnecessary because we can, and do, already pay grants to the kind of bodies that the noble Lord said he intended to provide for. I say "intended", since the clause, despite this idea, does not provide specifically for grants to bodies that are either national or voluntary. Secondly, our opposition to this clause does not imply any opposition to the involvement of voluntary bodies, at either national or local level, in the problems of inner areas. It was in order to underline that, and make it quite clear, that I made the comment, which the noble Baroness has just read out, at the end of the debate when the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, said that he would press his Amendment.

I have stressed before, and I stress again, that we are concerned to have the widest possible involvement of the voluntary sector, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment emphasised this when he spoke to the National Council of Social Service conference two weeks ago. If the Government felt that further powers were necessary to make grants to assist in this involvement of voluntary bodies, we should most certainly have included such powers in the Bill and should also have provided an appropriate Money Resolution. The noble Baroness is correct, and, if it had been decided that they were necessary, then they could have been provided, but not within the Money Resolution as it stands; they would have needed a new Money Resolution. But as I have already said, we do not believe that such additional powers are necessary to enable us to do what the noble Lord and the noble Baroness are suggesting, nor would the Amendment make further funds available.

We have discussed the role of voluntary bodies at some length at previous stages of this Bill, and there was considerable discussion in another place. I feel that my right honourable friend has moved some distance towards assuring, and reassuring, voluntary bodies in the discussion that he had with a deputation from the NCSS and also when he spoke at their conference. I am now sure that the House will be content not to insist on this Amendment.

§ Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON

My Lords, may I say from these Benches that we very much welcome the acceptance by the Government of the overwhelming majority of the Amendments, as the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has said. Like her, we are disappointed, but I think we have to accept willy-nilly the explanation which the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, has given for the unwillingness of the other place to accept this Amendment. I only hope that the optimism of the noble Baroness—that her right honourable friend has satisfied voluntary organisations—is realised. There is still great concern—I am sure noble Lords appreciate that I am involved with voluntary organisations—about the absence of the involvement of voluntary organisations in inner urban partnerships. There is a great concern among councils of voluntary service that they are not being sufficiently involved.

I hope that the discussions both in this House and in another place and the representations made by the Minister may convince local authorities that it is vitally important—for financial, charitable and efficiency reasons—that voluntary organisations should be thoroughly involved. If that assurance can be given, I should like to thank the noble Baroness very much, as it were as an apprentice in this House, for the courtesy, patience and, indeed, resignation with which she has been prepared to listen to all that I have had to say about the Bill during its various stages. We all feel that the Bill has been very considerably improved by the Amendments which the Government have been willing to accept.