HL Deb 24 July 1978 vol 395 cc727-30

78 Schedule 11, page 72, line 36, at end insert—

("THE EDUCATION ACT 1944 (c.31)

. At the end of section 13(4) of the Education Act 1944 there shall be inserted the following new subsections: (4A) (a) Where the proposals under this section are made by a Welsh local education authority the Secretary of State shall give public notice of his decision to approve them, with or without modification, or to withhold that approval; and (b) if that decision is a decision to approve the proposals with modifications the notice shall include a statement of those modifications; but, (c) that approval or as the case may be that decision to withhold approval shall remain provisional until either

  1. (i) the expiry of the period for the submission of objections laid down under subsection (4B) of this section or,
  2. (ii) where an objection has been submitted during that period, the giving of public notice under subsection (4B) of this section.
(4B) Where the functions of the Secretary of State under subsections (4) and (4A) of this section have been discharged by the Welsh Assembly:
  1. (a) those persons entitled under subsection (3) of this section to submit objections may, within two months of public notice being given under subsection (4B) of this section submit to the Secretary of State objections either to the approval or as the case may be to the decision to withhold approval referred to in a public notice made under subsection (4A) of this section; and
  2. (b) the Secretary of State may approve the proposals against which the objections have been submitted after making such modifications therein, if any, as appear to him to be desirable; and
    3. 728
  3. (c) the Secretary of State shall give public notice of his decision to approve the proposals, with or without amendment."")

The Commons disagreed to the above Amendment for the following Reason:

79 Because it would interfere with the Assembly's responsibility for schools in Wales.

6.30 p.m.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 78, to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason numbered 79. We have had lengthy debates in this House on education provisions in the Wales Bill, and in particular on the matter covered by this Amendment. The other place has also considered the Amendment at length and decided to disagree by a substantial margin.

All those who so assiduously attended our earlier debates will be familiar with the fact that Section 13(4) of the Education Act 1944 contains the Secretary of State's power of approval over proposals by local education authorities to establish, maintain or cease to maintain schools or changes in the character or size of premises of a school. This power is devolved to the Assembly by Schedule 2 to the Bill. Amendment No. 78 places the Secretary of State in the position of a kind of court of appeal in respect of decisions made by the Assembly, and under its terms people would be able to submit objections to the Assembly's decision to the Secretary of State.

During the debate in another place and, indeed, during our own discussions it was suggested that there was nothing exceptional about the proposals in the Amendment and that they would simply give an extra safeguard to people affected by decisions made by the Assembly and in no way affect the Assembly's responsibilities for education in Wales. The Government cannot accept such a proposition. To place the Secretary of State in the position of a higher authority to whom people may make objections over the Assembly's head must interfere in the Assembly's responsibilities. As has been pointed out before, the Secretary of State would be required to make decisions in respect of one corner of education for which he was in no other way responsible. He would therefore be exercising his judgment in, so to speak, a vacuum, with no direct knowledge of the matter in hand. The Assembly, we know, will be responsible for all other aspects of primary, secondary, further and higher education except, of course, the university. Perhaps the House may care to reflect also that any modification made by the Secretary of State to the proposals approved by the Assembly would have to be carried out by the Assembly using money, if necessary, from the block grant. This seems to me to be a clear path to recrimination and conflict. The Assembly must be clearly seen to be responsible.

May I make one other point before I conclude. During the debate in another place it was suggested that it would not just be one corner of the education system that would be left with the Secretary of State if this Amendment were carried—that he would, in fact, continue to excercise a number of functions in relation to education in Wales after devolution. The entries in column 2 of Schedule 2 were cited as evidence. I think I should make it clear to the House that the powers listed in column 2 currently exercised by the Secretary of State for Wales relate, with only one exception, to teachers' pay, which is to be reserved. That is the only major function in the education field which will remain with the Secretary of State. I do not think that it could be argued that the reservation of teachers' pay would interfere in the Assembly's ability to administer the education system in Wales. The remaining few functions listed in column 2 are those of Ministers other than the Secretary of State—that is, the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Employment.

The only other power of the Secretary of State is in relation to the appointment of school inspectors. My noble friend Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge explained on a previous occasion that this power is reserved solely to deny direct access to the Crown by the Assembly—an essential provision. In practice, appointments will be recommended to Her Majesty on the advice of the Assembly by means of the Secretary of State, who will remain the formal channel of communication, thus, if I may repeat what I said on an earlier occasion, maintaining not only the right channel of communication but also the proper constitutional framework into which to fit the Assembly, as we have conceived it in this Parliament. Therefore, I commend the views of the other place on this Amendment and trust that the House will agree that it should not be pressed.

Moved, That this House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 78, to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason numbered 79.—(Lord Goronwy-Roberts.)

Lord ELTON

My Lords, we spent a good deal of time on education in this place, and as a result a number of Amendments were introduced by the Government at the Report stage which we welcomed. We were able to send this Amendment to the Commons. It provided them with their only opportunity, and it was a substantial one, to discuss the subject of education. I cannot say that I am convinced by the arguments which the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, has advanced, but I think that it would be churlish to spend time upon rebutting them when I have no intention of resisting what he proposes. I am grateful to the noble Lord for having stated his views—if erroneously, at least explicitly and briefly.