§ 3 p.m.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have determined a preliminary policy towards the re-negotiation of the Lomé Convention.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, as noble Lords will know, the formal opening of the renegotiation of the Lomé Convention took place in Brussels this morning. Along with other Member States and the Commission, the United Kingdom played a full part in working out in advance the Community's position for the renegotiation.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Would he agree with me that the renegotiation of this Treaty is one of the most crucial events in the North-South dialogue? May I ask him three specific 647 questions. On the Stabilisation of Exports Scheme would Her Majesty's Government be inclined to support the inclusion of minerals beyond those already in the first Lomé scheme, in particular copper and bauxite which are produced by our friends? Secondly, would Her Majesty's Government consider the indexation of such materials so that they may keep pace with the ever-advancing cost of manufactures? Thirdly, would Her Majesty's Government look at the Industrial Development Centre which, over the past two years, appears to have favoured the expansion of European companies rather than a change in the economic structure of the developing world?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can assure my noble friend that we are satisfied that the continuation of the Lomé Convention type of arrangement for underdeveloped countries is of vital importance to them. He has himself adduced one or two considerations which must weigh very pressingly on the minds of all engaged in the present negotiations. We are broadly satisfied that the present Lomé Convention is on the right lines. We hope to see an agreement, not of indefinite duration, but one which we can test and supervise over, say, another five years, in order to see whether certain new developments—it may be additions—to its provisions are necessary and practical.
My noble friend has mentioned three questions—the question of minerals, the question of indexation over and above Stabex, and also the question of the proper operation of the Industrial Development Centre—all of which I can assure him are for urgent and careful consideration.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, is it a fact that any change in the Lomé Convention can be effective only by unanimity among the signatories, or can it be renegotiated on any other basis?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I do not think that this Convention could be effectively renegotiated except on a basis of unanimity between us and our partners, and I anticipate that there will be unanimity. There have been one or two points of varying emphasis and preference, of course, as is normal when 648 a Convention comes up at the end of five years for renewal and refurbishment. The noble Lord is probably particularly aware of the argument about whether it should be of indefinite duration. I think we have carried that point—I hope I do not put it too high—and for the reasons that I gave in answer to my noble friend, that we will need to look at this every few years precisely with a view to considering the kind of consideration that we have heard mentioned in this House this afternoon.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, while recognising the immense value of the Lomé Convention which unites 53 developing countries and the Nine within the Community, can the noble Lord say whether or not there has been any consideration of the proposal that a human rights clause should be contained in the renegotiations?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we have indeed been pressing hard within the Community for a human rights element in the renewed Convention. As the noble Baroness knows, there is in the preamble to the existing Convention, which ends in 1980, a reference to the Charter. It may well be that within the body of the new Convention there will be not only a reference to a Charter but also to the Universal Declaration. Let us see. Suffice it to say that this country, as one would expect, has taken something of a lead on the point which the noble Baroness has raised. We are deeply concerned at the possible situation that may arise where the Community, handling cash which has been contributed by all of us, may be without any kind of redress if indeed a recipient or applicant country is in flagrant violation of basic human rights. We must look at this matter to see whether in the terms of the Convention there is some way in which the Community as a whole, acting on behalf of all of us and, as I think, on behalf of the northern part of the North-South dialogue, can effectively prompt and guide applicant and recipient countries into a basic acceptance of human rights when receiving aid from the Community.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, would he bear in mind in these negotiations that where possible the recipient 649 countries themselves should be drawn in and should take the decisions jointly with the Community on this matter, and it should not be left just for the Community to decide?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, if I may say so, that is a most helpful and suggestive thought. I see the point that it is not for the donor countries only to lay down certain rules if it comes to that—I am hopeful that it will, although I cannot guarantee that it will; negotiation is proceeding at this very moment—but I feel greatly attracted to the suggestion made by the noble Baroness.