§ The two Electoral Regions shall be comprised of groups of constituencies and shall have allocated to them respectively the number of additional members as follows:
| Electoral Region | Constiuency Seats | Additional Seats | Total |
| South Wales … | 32 | 17 | 49 |
| North, Mid and West Wales | 18 | 8 | 26 |
| 50 | 25 | 75") |
§ The Commons disagreed to the above Amendments for the following Reason:
§ 19 Because the method of voting applying to Parliamentary and local elections is appropriate also for elections to the Assembly.
§ 3.14 p.m.
§ The LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on their Amendments Nos. 1 to 18, to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason numbered 19. This group of Amendments concerns the additional Member system of proportional representation for Assembly elections. On the Scotland Bill, your Lordships decided that, however strongly the House supported that electoral system for the Scottish Assembly, it would be wrong to insist upon the provision in the light of the overwhelming opposition to it in another place. Therefore, your Lordships may think that the considerations which led to that decision in the House in regard to the Scotland Bill should apply equally to the Wales Bill.
§ Moved, That this House doth not insist on the said Amendments, to which the Commons have disagreed for the reason numbered 19.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ Lord LLOYD of KILGERRANMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, in one of his penetrating and conciliatory speeches in the course of consideration of the Wales Bill, was good enough to refer to me personally as having a great knowledge of social, economic and industrial conditions in Wales. In that context, I feel, as one who has been concerned with developing PR for so many years, that I must say from these Benches, sincerely and firmly and in as kind language as I can muster, that the Government and the Labour Party, by their action in another place and by the speeches made in this place, have, by their attitude towards PR, done a grave disservice to the people of Wales in not supporting a measure of proportional representation for the election of this unique Assembly. It is true that they agreed to a free vote, but in my view that was not enough. The conception of PR and fairness in the electoral system is vitally important to the people of Wales.
As I pointed out in supporting the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, during consideration of an earlier Amendment to the Bill, 657 under the present position in Wales it is absurd, and even politically dangerous, that the Labour Party, with under 50 per cent. of the votes cast, has 23 of the 36 seats to the exclusion of fair representation of minority Parties and indeed of North and South Wales. Very few people can be satisfied with the opinion and attitude which exists among the electorate towards politicians per se. In Wales there is cynicism about, and even disrespect for, Parliamentarians which is far stronger than ever before. It would have helped political progress and unity in Wales, without resulting in great loss in seats for the Government, to have experimented with PR in the unique conditions of the Welsh Assembly. It is felt that the Labour Party in Wales is more obsessed with power and patronage than it is with social and economic questions, and electoral reform. Proportional representation is far more democratic than the first-past-the-post system.
The Government have said that they support the referendum for a Welsh Assembly. I am beginning to doubt whether the Labour Party is intent on securing the success of the referendum. Wales is widely divided on this issue. If the Government had introduced PR for this unique Assembly that would have vastly increased the support for devolution in Wales. This House overwhelmingly supported PR, as the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has already indicated. The noble Lord, Lord Harlech, made brilliant speeches in support of proportional representation in the context of Wales. The answer he received in this House—and the answer in the other place was not much different—was given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey. I say without any personal disrespect to him that his speech on proportional representation was a collection of non-arguments, full of banalaties and cocooned in the flyblown phylacteries of an age that is past.
It is highly significant to the younger generation in Wales that the Conservative and Labour Parties have found it necessary to introduce PR to Northern Ireland. The younger generation are asking: Why is it necessary to safeguard minorities by introducing proportional representation in Northern Ireland and not in Wales? They ask (I have the privilege of being a 658 member of the council of one of the colleges of the University of Wales, and I have heard this in debates at universities in Wales): Is this concession to Northern Ireland because the pressure of violence, bombs and booby traps has helped in some way towards progress in electoral reform?
Having said all that, and deprecated the attitude of the Government towards proportional representation, may I say that we on these Benches do not propose to press this matter to a Division. The House and the country clearly know our position with regard to proportional representation. Even now, perhaps, the Government might think again and, as was suggested in the other place, they may still consider that, in the context and the special circumstances of Wales—totally different from those of Scotland—in the referendum as to whether there should be a Welsh Assembly they may also include a question as to the form of electoral voting which should take place in those circumstances.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, very briefly I would say that when this question came to us originally it had been discussed for 45 minutes in another place. As a result of the action we took, it has been discussed for a further two and a half hours. I think that was worth while. I think a great deal more is known, not only in Parliament but in the country, as a result of our efforts. I am sure that my noble friends who joined in this effort will he glad to have planted this seed. Like the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, I would not expect it to bear fruit so early, and I trust that they will tend and water it by means other than pressing it at this stage.
§ The LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for the conclusions which they have reached, and I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, on an adjectival response in regard to my noble and learned friend Lord McCluskey worthy of my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek, if he will permit me to say so without offence either to himself or to my noble friend. The agreement that was entered into between the Labour Government and the Liberal Party was, of course, that the proportional representation issue should be decided on a free vote. That 659 commitment was honoured, and the result has been a defeat in another place on this issue. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, that the Government have every intention to seek a successful answer to the referendum issue. We are not playing games in this matter; we consider the Wales Bill to be a valuable Bill for the people of Wales. But I thank the noble Lord for his acceptance of the inevitable in not opposing what I have suggested.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.