HL Deb 24 July 1978 vol 395 cc746-68

7.20 p.m.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS rose to move, That the draft Dominica Termination of Association Order 1978, laid before the House on 10th July, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that this order be approved. The order will be made under Section 10(2) and (3) of the West Indies Act 1967. It will terminate the status of association of Dominica with the United Kingdom with effect from 3rd November 1978, and will provide that with effect from the same date Dominica will cease to form part of Her Majesty's dominions. It will then become an independent sovereign republic to be known as the Commonwealth of Dominica, but it is understood that an application will be made for membership of the Commonwealth.

The West Indies Act requires that any order under Section 10(2) must be laid in draft before Parliament and approved by a Resolution of each House of Parliament. Dominica will be the second of the Associated States to move to complete independence by means of an Order in Council under Section 10(2) of the Act. Noble Lords will be aware that Section 10(1) of the West Indies Act empowers the associated States to move to independence unilaterally by means of an Act of their own Parliament. Before I go on to explain why the British Government have agreed in this case to the use of Section 10(2), I should perhaps explain why the Government do not consider it right to insist that the Government of Dominica should use Section 10(1) of the Act.

The West Indies Act was designed to provide the smaller members of the now defunct West Indies Federation with a new non-colonial relationship with the United Kingdom which would be entirely free and voluntary. The voluntary nature of the status is embodied in Section 10(1) of the Act. But it was the firm desire of the territories themselves, and of the British Government in 1967, to work towards some new regional groupings for the smaller islands of the Eastern Caribbean.

In order to support the movement towards regional integration, Section 10(1) of the West Indies Act provided a simpler route to independence in association with others than to separate independence. A Bill terminating the status of association in order to move to separate independence would need to be endorsed by two-thirds of the votes cast in a popular referendum, but no such condition is attached to a Bill terminating the association with the United Kingdom and replacing it with a similar association with any Commonwealth country in the region.

However, all the Governments concerned now accept that there is no prospect in the short term of this kind of regional political association emerging. Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world dependent territories of similar and even smaller size and resources have been granted separate independence. It should he noted that the move to full independence is of less significance for the associated States than for the dependent territories.

The West Indies Act handed over full internal political responsibility to the Governments of the associated States in 1967. The responsibilities of the British Government, which we are now considering relinquishing, are restricted to the fields of external defence and external affairs. There is at present no perceived external threat and, in practice, authority has been delegated to the Governments of the associated States to act for themselves in those areas of external affairs in which they have the greatest interest. We are not even wholly responsible for external affairs in this situation of what we call association. Termination of association, therefore, amounts to little more than formalising the status quo.

In view of all these circumstances, it would clearly be unreasonable if the British Government, by insisting on the use of Section 10(l) with its requirements for a two-thirds referendum majority, were to place obstacles in the way of independence for the associated States which are not suffered by dependent territories. It was, after all, the spirit of the West Indies Act that independence should be easier for the associated States than for dependent territories. This was a view that was supported by all the Governments of the Caribbean community who have passed resolutions calling for the use of Section 10(2) of the Act to terminate the status of association for all the States. It would clearly have been somewhat pointed, to say the least, in the face of all this—to which is added the clear and unanimous view of the neighbouring Governments of the Caribbean—if we had in fact not proceeded according to Section 10(2). They have expressed the view—that is, the Governments of the Caribbean—that the continuation of the status of association would be an impediment to regional co-operation.

As I have said, there are at present no prospects of regional political integration of the kind which Section 10(1) was designed to stimulate and facilitate, but I am glad to say that there have been some welcome signs of closer economic co-operation, of a move towards common services, which we in Britain will continue to encourage and indeed, as appropriate, to support with aid funds. The Government of Barbados, for example, have entered into discussions with the associated States concerning the creation of a common coastguard, joint marketing and air freight, a regional police training centre, and joint collaboration in overseas representation after independence.

In a wider context, my right honourable friend the Minister for Overseas Development has recently represented the British Government at meetings held under the auspices of the World Bank which brought together Ministers from virtually all the developing countries and territories of the Caribbean, 24 donor countries, and 12 international institutions. As a result, a Caribbean group for economic cooperation and development has been created. Technical work is now proceeding on how the donors might best assist the individual countries of the Caribbean. This new achievement of co-operation for Caribbean economic development, like the Barbadian initiative and the resolutions of the Heads of Government of the Caribbean community, to which I referred earlier, is of profound significance.

It will be seen that the British Government, in agreeing to the termination of association, are responding to the overwhelming body of opinion in the Caribbean itself, and that they are not simply washing their hands of their obligations. I can give the House a genuine assurance that Dominica will come to independence in a climate of hope and confidence for the economics of the Eastern Caribbean, which we have hoped to create for many years and which is now something of a reality.

However, of course we must ensure that certain criteria are satisfied before we can agree to make an Order in Council under Section 10(2). The first criterion is that we must be satisfied that the termination of the status of association is acceptable to the people of the State concerned. Secondly, we must be satisfied that the proposed independence Constitution makes proper provision for the protection of fundamental rights and the rule of law. As to acceptability, it can never be unanimous; I have some experience of these matters by now and I have never found a dependent territory or a similar country moving finally to independence without a good deal of discussion followed in most cases by a good deal of dissension. But in Dominica, as in the other countries we have advanced to independence, it is perfectly clear that there is a very substantial majority for independence.

For example, at the last General Election in Dominica in 1975 the governing Party published a manifesto in which policies involving termination of the status of association were clearly set down. There is no evidence that the termination of association was opposed at that time by the Opposition candidates and the governing Party won 16 out of 21 seats and some 46 per cent. of the popular vote, the main Opposition Party polling some 30 per cent. of the votes —without having made anti-independence a plank in their campaign—and about 17 per cent. was polled by independents, and, as I said on another occasion in this House with a sidelong glance at our friends the Liberals, independents, like Liberals, by definition cannot be un animous, so the 17 per cent. could be counted either way.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, in respect of Dominica, the independents in fact voted with the Opposition; we should welcome that from time to time from the Liberals.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

Touche, my Lords, and I give the point freely to the noble Baroness. Following the publication in 1976 by the Dominica Government of a policy statement on the termination of association, a Green Paper incorporating a draft Constitution and a discussion document by the Opposition Party, it was agreed with both Parties in Dominica that a constitutional conference should be convened to discuss the terms of a new Constitution which might be brought into effect on the termination of association without prejudice to the position of any of the Parties on the question of the method and timing of the termination of association.

The conference, which took place in May 1977, showed that both Parties clearly expressed their support for the principle of the termination of association. It is important to stress that; there has never been any dispute between the two Parties on the basic question, that of independence. Certain differences over the proposed Constitution arose and could not be resolved there and then, and my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State indicated that further discussions should take place in Dominica. He said that if broad agreement then emerged, he would be willing to recommend to his colleagues that association should be terminated but that if serious differences remained, some further process of consultation might be necessary.

Three thousand copies of a document summarising in layman's language the findings of the conference were then circulated in Dominica. The issues were the subject of an intensive debate for some 12 months following the conference —that is, 12 months from May 1977—and, as a result of a number of concessions from the Government of Dominica, the differences were considerably narrowed, though not entirely resolved, and it was arranged that the Dependent Territories Adviser, Mr. R. N. Posnett, should visit Dominica to discuss the remaining issues. He was also instructed to form an assessment of the state of public opinion and to report.

As the House knows, Mr. Posnett's report was published on 5th July as Cmnd. 7279. I trust noble Lords have read it, so will not attempt to cover the same ground again here. Suffice it to say that the British Government accept Mr. Posnett's main findings, which are that there is no evidence that the people of Dominica wish to retain the status of association with the United Kingdom, that the issues have been debated in Dominica at unusual length and in considerable depth, that the proposed Constitution is a good one, that the constitutional differences are as narrow as they are ever likely to be and that the Government of Dominica, bearing in mind the platform on which they were elected in 1975, are entirely justified in their request that an Order in Council should now be made terminating association with the United Kingdom with effect from 3rd November 1978.

The principal aim of the Opposition under Miss Charles's leadership has been to secure the type of constitution which would best preserve the interests of the Opposition and guarantee the basic rights of the people of Dominica. I pay tribute, not for the first time, to the great determination and diligence with which Miss Charles has pursued that course. I also pay tribute to the Premier and Government of Dominica for the great patience and flexibility they have displayed over the last two years. They have both, Premier and Leader of the Opposition, and their followers, been equally concerned to create a constitution with strong safeguards for fundamental rights and the rule of law, and they have taken the initiative at the conference in tabling various proposals to that end.

Where difficulties have arisen they have generally concerned those parts of the Constitution which, unavoidably, must be based on an element of trust between the two Parties. Regrettably, as so often happens in territories of this kind, that trust has sometimes been lacking, but the Government of Dominica have made a number of major concessions in an attempt to meet the Opposition's case at least half way. As a result, the differences between the two sides have become so narrow that on 10th July the British Government felt able to announce that it would be unreasonable to expect the Government of Dominica to make further concessions from what was a perfectly reasonable and defensible position and that a draft Order terminating association would therefore be laid before Parliament.

One of the features of Mr. Posnett's admirable report is that there is an expectation among the great majority of the people of Dominica for independence, and especially among the young, and it is important that we should not further delay this great advance in the history of that country. After all, the period of preparation, of discussion and of conference is not a few days but quite two years, and "hope deferred maketh the heart sick". A population like the population of Dominica, clearly looking forward to independence, should have it as soon as the United Kingdom and its Parliament can arrange it, and that is what we are doing today. That is what the other place did on Friday, I believe, when unanimously, by general acclaim from every part of that place, there was support for this order and support for the advance of Dominica to independence.

Since the announcement that the order would he laid Miss Charles has indicated that there remains for her only one issue of overriding importance, namely, her proposal that half the members of the electoral commission should be appointed on the advice of the Prime Minister and half on her advice. On the other hand, the Government of Dominica have argued, quite reasonably, that the President should appoint all the members in his own deliberate judgment after consulting both parties. I am very pleased to be able to inform the House today, a House which contains very good friends of Dominica, that the Premier of Dominica, notwithstanding the fact that the British Government were content to terminate association on the basis of his proposals, as we were, has himself agreed to the Opposition's proposal for the method of manning and "womanning"—one cannot be too careful these days— the electoral commission, thus removing the most important remaining difference.

Miss Charles has informed the British Government that she accepts this concession. That is another example of the way in which Mr. John, the Premier, has consistently sought to compromise and to build a broad consensus. The broadest possible consensus now appears to have been achieved and I feel sure that this House will wish to approve the draft Order in Council—it having been approved with such general acclaim in another place —which has now been laid before us so that Dominica can play its full and proper role in the developing Caribbean community, in the world at large and as a member of the Commonwealth. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft Dominica Termination of Association Order 1978, laid before the House on 10th July, be approved.—(Lord Goronwy-Roberts.)

7.42 p.m.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, we on these Benches would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, for having introduced this order to your Lordships' House and to say on behalf of my noble friends that we shall not in any way oppose this order but support the approval of the order as indeed did my honourable friend in another place.

The Order in Council itself is one more important document in the history of Dominica which will affect the lives of its citizens and the future of its territory. In a succession of historical developments the progress of Dominica has come within a sphere of influence both of the French and the British nations. But the history of Dominica is indeed a curious one because, despite its so-called discovery from the West by Christopher Columbus in 1493, it remained for centuries apparently undisturbed by any foreign influence. In the last 200 years successive settlements of French and English have contrived to leave their influence on the island with both the advantages and disadvantages which a foreign influence brings.

Following the agreement in principle between all the parties in Dominica and between the Government of Dominica and the British Government that Dominica should move to independence, the order will change the status from a state of association with the United Kingdom to a sovereign State and as such we welcome this new sovereign State into the comity of nations. It would be idle to pretend that the present situation on the island is completely harmonious or that there has not been opposition to the timing of the order. I think it is agreed by all that there have been difficulties in coming to a satisfactory termination of these discussions. The Leader of the Opposition, Miss Charles, whom I have not had the privilege and honour to meet but who has corresponded with me on various matters, has fought a noble fight for a draft Constitution which she maintains would represent a measure of fairness, justice and guarantee for the protection of the civil and political rights of the citizens of a new sovereign State of Dominica. In many of her proposals she has fortunately proved successful and that indeed is a measure of the earnestness and seriousness with which she approached the problem. I also believe that the Government are due some measure of congratulation that they have been able to meet Miss Charles in many of her requests. From that point of view, anyway, there has been a satisfactory conclusion.

We on this side of the House were particularly pleased to hear the information given by the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, which I believe was mentioned in the winding-up speech of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary in another place, that the Government have considered that the proposals concerning the electoral Commission, put forward by Miss Charles, were acceptable to them. That, I believe, has gone a long way towards allaying some of her fears in the drafting of the new Constitution. I hope, incidentally, that this will mean that she will be able to have copies of electoral lists because it was indicated to me at some stage that she had not been able to have electoral lists. Perhaps the Government will be kind enough to note this point. They will no doubt have had communications themselves on this matter. It is a minor matter but I should be grateful if it could be clarified that the Government of Dominica will concede to the Leader of the Opposition on that point. It is a small request to make and I should be grateful if the Minister would take that on board.

There is still the question of the powers of the President and the manner of his appointment. I do not know if that matter is still outstanding. Perhaps the Minister when he winds up would make a comment on that point, although that was not the major sticking point over coming to a satisfactory conclusion. Those then have been the outstanding constitutional difficulties. But those are not the only problems which will face Dominica after it has gained independence. Like all countries, great and small, independence of government still requires inter-dependence of commerce, of economy and of finance. I know that the Government will have accepted every form of assistance—and I do not necessarily mean financial assistance—through regional organisations such as the EEC, possibly becoming members of the Lomé Convention and of international organisations such as UNCTAD, particularly when in relation to some of the products which are the main produce of Dominica, the plans and proposals under UNCTAD could well benefit Dominica. We hope that the Government will encourage those actions.

It is also welcome to know that there will be closer co-operation with neighbouring States, particularly with Barbados with its new proposals to work in conjunction with Dominica, where clearly there will be a certain lack of trained and technical skills to deal with the many duties and tasks which will face an independent State. I hope that overseas representation, which is a major concern to a newly-established country, will not be confined only to members of the Party in Government, whichever Party that might be, but that consideration will be given to the nomination and appointment of members of the community of Dominica who could serve their country well abroad regardless of their Party.

From this side of the House we welcome Dominica to the Commonwealth. We welcome Dominica hopefully to being a ratifying member of the Lomé Convention and indeed it might well be among the 150, approximately, Member States of the United Nations and be able to uphold the principles of the United Nations Charter. For the people of Dominica to enjoy the fruits of independence they must have a viable economic structure and we on these Benches have expressed our reservations at some of the difficulties which face these people. We hope that our fears will prove to be unjustified and that all the peoples of Dominica will face the future together in hopeful co-operation. I beg to approve the order.

7.50 p.m.

Lord McNAIR

My Lords, I think that it would be ungracious if those of us who do not happen to have any particular connection with Wales did not recognise what a very gruelling day the two previous speakers have had. But, to turn to Dominica, I should say that we must all now recognise that on 3rd November the Commonwealth of Dominica will be born— born free and as independent as any State can be in an interdependent world. I suggest that whatever reservations may linger in the minds of some of us, we ought to welcome this happy event and send the island our very best wishes for its debut on the world's stage.

The reservations which I feel do not in any way relate to any personalities on the island. They are general rather than particular, and perhaps more relevant to any future situations of this kind than to the present case which is, as I appreciate, already settled. On future occasions—and such there will be—I hope that Her Majesty's Government, whatever their political complexion may then be, will consider the use of Section 10(1) of the West Indies Act, with the referendum which that subsection entails, rather than Section 10(2). I say this because I feel that if any substantial body of opinion in a community is doubtful about taking such an important step as independence, then some overt test of opinion is surely desirable. I do not see how the most able and percipient official in the world can be a substitute for a referendum, and if the two-thirds majority is felt to be excessive—and I do not myself think it is—it is within our power to amend it.

In case anything in what I have just said might sound like a criticism of the by now famous Posnett Report, I should like to make it clear that that was not what I intended. I do not see how anybody could do the job that was given to Mr. Posnett better than he did it, and I know that I am not the only Member of this House who has cause to be very grateful to him for the generous way in which he has put his time and experience at our disposal.

I should like to say in passing how very much we welcome the initiatives which the Government of Barbados are taking, and of which the noble Lord has informed us. There is no need for long speeches this evening. I wish to end by sending the very best wishes of the Liberal Party to the future Commonwealth of Dominica, to its people, to its Government and to its Opposition, and, as in all good democracies, may they frequently change places. In my last sentence I wish to express the hope that some day the island will find some agreeable form of unity or close association with one or more of its island neighbours, which I am quite sure would be to their mutual benefit.

7.53 p.m.

Lord MONSON

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, I, too, am delighted that the Dominica Opposition Leader's suggestion for ensuring the impartiality of the electoral commission has just been agreed to by the Prime Minister of Dominica and will now be incorporated in the draft constitution. My personal feeling is that the draft constitution will accordingly have written into it most of the safeguards that can reasonably be expected. It is those less easily definable matters which no constitution can provide for or guard against that still give some cause for concern. For example, the fact that members of the Opposition have apparently not been invited to assist in the official independence celebrations is not the best of auguries for the future, particularly bearing in mind that the Government Party obtained only 46 per cent. of the popular vote at the last general election. One would hope that the Government may relent on this so that independence can start off on the right foot with the maximum possible consensus and goodwill.

We all realise, of course, that Dominica has been internally self-governing for over 10 years, and that Britain's residual legal powers are very few indeed. Nonetheless, British residual interest, however shadowy, must act to some extent as a psychological brake on anyone who might be contemplating an abuse of power—not that I am suggesting that anyone is contemplating doing any such thing at the present time.

Like the noble Lord, Lord McNair, I should have been happier with a referendum under Section 10(1) of the West Indies Act. Here, I should interject that, despite the explanation by the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, of the background to subsection (1), I maintain that, as a general principle—applying to all countries and not just small West Indian islands—a majority of substantially above 50 per cent, ought to be sought when any major constitutional change is attempted anywhere.

However, be that as it may, it is clear from paragraph 39 of Mr. Posnett's very impressive report that Her Majesty's Government felt that the necessary 66⅔ per cent, figure would not be reached. Indeed, a bulletin issued by the ruling Party seems to suggest that there might be some difficulty in achieving a 50 per cent. figure, on the slightly dubious supposition that there would be no cross-Party voting, as there is when referendums take place in Europe or North America.

So, whatever one's generalised misgivings might be about any territory with a population no larger than that of the City of Lincoln becoming totally independent, it is clear that independence under Section 10(2) of the West Indies Act is, for all practical purposes, a fait accompli. Let us hope that all parties work within the spirit, as well as to the letter, of the new Constitution. Dominica is an exceptionally beautiful country, and its people are courteous and dignified. I join with other noble Lords in wishing them well; and I hope that their future informal association with Britain, as a fellow member of the Commonwealth, will continue to be a happy and fruitful one.

7.56 p.m.

Lord VERNON

My Lords, the first point I wish to make about the order is that I feel it has been brought in with unseemly haste. Hardly was the ink dry on Mr. Posnett's report—and certainly before there was any possibility of considering the issues involved, or of consulting those in the Island of Dominica—than the order was laid before Parliament. The first that I heard of it was last Thursday, and I feel that the Government could have done rather better than that, for both Parliament and Dominica.

The Government have maintained all along that the present Government of Dominica have a mandate to take the country into independence. I personally dispute this. If the Government have a mandate at all—and on a constitutional issue such as this it is arguable whether a Government elected on a minority of votes has a mandate—that mandate was to take the country into independence in association with other States in the Caribbean. To go it alone, which is what they are doing now, is very different from that.

Be that as it may, our own Government nevertheless felt—and felt rightly, in my opinion—that they could not introduce an order into Parliament unless they were first satisfied that the people of Dominica as a whole wanted immediate independence. So what did they do? They sent Mr. Posnett to find out, and we have before us his distinguished and extremely clear report. It is important to look very carefully at this report because it may be used as a precedent in the future.

As a method of assessing opinion, it is defective in many ways. For instance, one finds that Mr. Posnett was able to spend only four days in Dominica—all of them at Roseau, the capital. He did this so that he could distill the views of the islanders through discussion with political leaders and leaders of various representative bodies, details of which are set out in the annex to the report. But on his own admission this method has obvious limitations. My own feeling is that it cannot possibly be an adequate method of assessing opinion throughout the island. The people themselves were not consulted, partly because, as Mr. Posnett himself tells us, the concepts of Independence and a new Constitution were not easily comprehensible to them.

That in itself, my Lords, is surely a paternalistic and undesirable attitude for the British Government to take. How was it that the Pearce Commission felt able to hold meetings and consult with the much more primitive rural bodies all over Rhodesia before they reached their decision? I do not wish to be critical of Mr. Posnett, who had an extremely difficult task and who I am sure did it to the best of his ability in the time available. Nevertheless, I think that as a method of assessing opinion on the island it leaves much to be desired.

As I said in my speech on 3rd July, the only satisfactory way to assess this opinion is to ask the people themselves, either, as the noble Lord, Lord McNair, suggested, by means of a referendum, or through a general election. But that the Prime Minister of Dominica evidently does not wish to do, for reasons which we can only surmise. Having said all that, I appreciate that at this eleventh hour significant concessions have been made on certain aspects of the Constitution which were of particular concern to the Opposition. I think that the Government of Dominica deserve to be congratulated on having shown this degree of flexibility just as I think that Miss Charles, as Leader of the Opposition, is also to be congratulated on the assiduous way in which she fought for changes in the Constitution, which can only enhance democracy and the rule of law.

Like other noble Lords who have spoken, I should like to conclude by sending my best wishes to the people of Dominca for their forthcoming Independence. Whether or not we approve of the manner in which this problem has been handled by Her Majesty's Government, the die is now cast, and I certainly hope that they will have a prosperous and democratic future.

8.3 p.m.

Lord SEGAL

My Lords, on Friday afternoon of last week the other place spent one hour and forty minutes discussing this order, so I am sure that no one, least of all anyone from Wales, would grudge this House spending rather a little more time than perhaps at one time seemed possible in discussing some of the aspects of this very important order. May I at the outset also thank my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts for that very clear and emphatic way in which he introduced this order to the House. It was done in a manner entirely convincing except to those who are acquainted at first hand with the Island of Dominica, who know and have met many of its leaders and are fully aware of the difficult conditions which have prevailed in the island. May I also pay a tribute to Mr. Posnett for his excellent report and also, if I may say so, for his readiness in discussing the implications of that report, his warm accessibility and the infinite trouble he has taken to explain some of the statements in that report.

I remember some time ago attending a play with a strange title, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" and in warmly accepting this motion for the termination of our association with the Island of Dominica, I would, in all humility, remind those Members who are more aware of the internal conditions in the island than some other Members of your Lordships' House, that many funny things have happened in Dominica on its way to independence. May I also say that we ought to acknowledge, in fairness, the readiness of the Government of Dominica to approach the attitude taken by the Opposition, to try to meet them if possible halfway, and certainly, if I may say so, to applaud this last moment concession which they have granted on the whole question of the electoral commission. The Dominica Government now have a very great opportunity ahead of them, and everyone in all parts of this House will wish them well.

In saying that, I would again direct my noble friend's attention to the fact that a consensus of uneasiness has been expressed this evening from all quarters of the House—from a Member of the Opposition, from a Member on the Liberal Benches, from a Member on the Cross-Benches and even, with all due humility, by a supporter of the Government. We have all admitted that the Government of Dominica now have ahead of them a great opportunity. I hope they will seize that opportunity, and endeavour to form a Government of national union, and go even further to try and conciliate the Opposition to avoid, not only acting in any way unjustly and unfairly, but even giving the impression in any way of acting unjustly. May I say, too, that in my own instance the only reason why I have been rather hesitant in accepting this Motion is because I feel that, in view of the past record of the Government of Dominica, I have a fleeting suspicion that the future may inflict a sense of unfairness and injustice upon the opinion, as I believe, of the majority of the people of Dominica which I hope the Government of Dominica will do everything in their power to seek to dissipate entirely.

We all realise that not only is independence a heavy burden to bear, but it is a heavy responsibility as well which now faces the people of Dominica. They have to work harder than ever before; they have to show a sense of national independence, of loyalty greater than has been shown in the past: they must in the fullest sense of the word be independent in the pride that they take in the welfare of their own island. We have before us instances where independence has not proved to be an unmixed blessing. We feel that other countries such as Uganda have gone the wrong way after independence. In the case of Aden, independence does not mean complete independence, but rather a state of serfdom which many countries have been assailed with in this struggle to assert their independence.

We hope that Dominica will be able to avoid all these pitfalls, and will be able to face a flourishing, prosperous future. We hope that the people of Dominica will never have any occasion to harbour any regrets, with the gift of hindsight, upon the associated status which they enjoyed, that has existed for 10 years, and which has given them enormous advantages during that period; and we hope that the future which faces them will be even happier than their past. I understand that the safeguards which have been incorporated—at the very last minute, because there has been no time as yet to print them in the order of termination of association—are to be incorporated at a later date after the Privy Council approves this order for independence. I feel this is a major step forward. It shows a willingness and a readiness on the part of the Government of Dominica to accommodate the protests on the part of the official Opposition, and now for the people of Dominica there is the dawn of a new era, an era we pray, of hope and an era of fulfilment. To many of us, this is not a case of the end of a chapter nor of bidding goodbye. We shall watch the fortunes of Dominica in the future more than ever before. We shall always be ready to try to help. We put our trust in the people of Dominica and its government, and we hope very earnestly and devoutly that that trust will not be let down.

I would feel happier if, when the electoral commission is formed, the future Government of Dominica may invite from abroad independent observers to report on the elections. This is not in any way an interference with the independence of Dominica. It does not diminish independence; on the contrary, it will reinforce it. I recall an instance even in the days of the Government of South Vietnam, when the President of South Vietnam, President Thieu, invited observers from this country to go to Vietnam and act as official observers of the elections that were held in that country. If the same action were to be taken by the Government of Dominica, it would go a long way to restore the complete confidence of many people who know Dominica and its past history in their process of holding elections. It is not enough to repeat that the Government of Dominica is now independent. All that I would say is that its independence will be increased and not diminished, if independent observers were invited to be present at future elections.

So, my Lords, I should like also to urge upon our Government to step up economic aid and technical advice to the Government of Dominica. We are assured, and we would like to assure the people of Dominica, of the goodwill of our Government towards it. We hope it will now be translated into even greater help in the future; for Dominica today needs our help more than ever before.

8.13 p.m.

Lord HATCH of LUSBY

My Lords, it seems appropriate if, briefly, I from these Benches as one who, along with the late right honourable James Griffiths, took part in the beginning of Party government in Dominica were to add my congratulations and good wishes to the people of that island. In doing so, may I just mention one issue which appears to have arisen during this short debate, I am sure quite unintentionally. We all honour the concern that has been shown from all sides of the House and, particularly, if I may say so, from my noble friend Lord Segal, on the future of the people of this island. But let us be quite clear as to what we are doing tonight. All we are doing in fact is to pass over to the Government and people of Dominica responsibility for defence and foreign affairs. If this termination order were not passed, there would be no change in the domestic political situation of that country.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the new Constitution would play any role in the political set-up of Dominica?

Lord HATCH of LUSBY

My Lords, I am sure that the new Constitution will play a vital role; but that Constitution is the Constitution as devised by the people of Dominica and it is their responsibility. The point I am trying to make is simply that it is not our responsibility in this House or in any other place for the domestic affairs and the domestic politics of Dominica. I think it is most notable that we have heard from my noble friend the Minister that the other islands in the Caribbean are unanimously supporting the action of Her Majesty's Government. I think it is equally notable that in the island itself there has been shown, over the past few months, a spirit of compromise, a spirit of discussion, a spirit of democratic decision, which augurs well for the future politics of the Dominican people. As all British political Parties have agreed to this order, have welcomed this order, and are sending their best wishes to the people of Dominica for the future, I suggest it would be appropriate for us to send them without reservation as to what the people of Dominica do with their new constitutional powers.

After all, when the state of association was first devised, there was never the slightest question in anybody's mind but that the people of the West Indian islands, like the people of every other part of the world, had an absolute right to national independence. The state of association was a voluntary state entered into to enable small communities to be represented abroad by the British Government and, if necessary, to be defended by British arms for a temporary period on a voluntary basis. All we are doing tonight is to observe their wish that that state of association should now come to an end; that our responsibility in those respects is now finished and they are prepared to take it for themselves. This is a matter common to both political Parties in Dominica and it is our duty to observe their wishes.

My Lords, in conclusion, let us not even suggest a patronising attitude that we are able, or that we have a responsibility, to suggest that democratic rights as exercised and devised by the people of Dominca might not be used as we would wish. That is now their responsibility. It has been their responsibility over the past ten years as far as domestic affairs are concerned. It will now be their responsibility over domestic affairs and external affairs. I believe that there is no reason for fear. The people of Dominica, like the people of other West Indian islands, are perfectly capable of devising their own political systems; of observing their long-established tradition in democratic discussion and action. I hope that this whole House will join together unanimously in giving their very best wishes to the people of Dominica for their future; and, as a last gesture, that Her Majesty's Government will promise the people of Dominica that they will give generously in support of the economic development of those people in the future.

8.20 p.m.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I am sure that we agree with my noble friend Lord Hatch of Lusby that there is a unanimous welcome to Dominica as the latest in a long line of adherents to the Commonwealth as a sovereign independent State. She is on the verge of independence and of a new relationship with the United Kingdom and other members of the Commonwealth—a point that I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Monson, expressed eloquently.

This unanimous feeling of welcome to the new independent member of the Commonwealth was admirably led by the speech of the noble Baroness at the commencement of this discussion. She referred to certain misgivings about the timing of the order; I suggest that we are dealing with the advance of a territory to independence, not with timing it in such a way as to suit one or other of the sections in that territory. We must be very careful indeed that we do not go from the constitutional necessities into political involvement.

The noble Baroness made the point that copies of the electoral list should be made available to Miss Charles and indeed to everybody in Dominica. I agree with her; it is not a small point. Nor was the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Monson, about Miss Charles, the lady leader of the Opposition, un-portant. I very much approve of women leaders of the Opposition. No doubt from time to time and in carefully selected countries they may even, after a long period of training and expectation, become women Prime Ministers. I certainly approve of lady leaders of the Opposition—long may they reign in that capacity. Miss Charles of course has a right and a claim to a place of honour in the celebrations that will follow this announcement.

I should like to join my own voice and vote to that of the noble Lord and everybody else in this House in a goodwill message to the Government of Dominica, coupled with our expectation that the Premier and his colleagues will act in that spirit. After all, they will no doubt be reading these admirable speeches, knowing the knowledge and feeling that infused all of them. We heard an excellent speech from the noble Lord, Lord McNair. He made a tremendous appeal to the Government in Dominica to hearken to what its best friends—and they are to be found in Britain—have to offer in advice.

I join with him and others in hoping that it will be found appropriate for this country not only to continue aid and technical assistance, but to do so in the most generous fashion possible. This country and Dominica will now be looking to the future for a new, modern relationship on which friendship and co-operation will flourish. The noble Lord, Lord Vernon—who has fought very hard to ensure that the complete spectrum of the situation in Dominica should be considered—chided us somewhat with being in a bit of haste, the order being laid and then commended for passage in the two Houses rather quickly.

The period of gestation has been quite two years. It is not the period between the laying of an order and its passage that is the real test of how long a question or a problem has been studied and brought to solution. I do not need to delay the House, because it is attended tonight by people who know about these matters. I could give the chronology of how this stated off, how it moved gradually, not without difficulty or unease, as we have heard tonight; but the time finally has arrived when it should be done. Otherwise, as I said, expectations may be dashed to the ground and situations created which are truly foreign to the Caribbean scene.

The noble Lord, Lord Vernon, referred to the question of association with some other Government. The interesting fact is that Dominica could move very easily into association with some other Governments, or even one Government, and in that way become independent of the United Kingdom because the act of association with another country would be in itself the act of detaching itself independently from the United Kingdom. When we tend to grant disassociation on terms that they behave like this and that, let us remember they could have done it another way without having to listen to us sometimes preaching a little at them, but they have not done so.

In concert with other countries in the Caribbean—every one of them—they have said: "Do it through Section 10(2). This is the way we want it done." We have done it the way they want it done. There are no conditions, but there are, as my noble friend Lord Segal has said, firm expectations that this beautiful island and its most attractive people should behave, the one to the other, in a way that, if I may quote him, will create a new sense of national union. I have every confidence that this will happen. I share this with my noble friend Lord Hatch of Lusby. We have seen it happen before: a dependent territory, or even an associated State, moving into independence in a certain atmosphere of dissension, but, in the event, having both hands on the fact of responsible independence, rising to the occasion. This is the confidence that we are expressing in passing this order tonight. This is the message that we are conveying to Dominica. I am most grateful to all who have taken part in this helpful debate which I hope will be as widely circulated and studied in Dominica as that layman's version of their Constitution was.