LORDS AMENDMENTS (Hansard, 20 July 1978)

§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on their Amendments Nos. 48 to 53 to which the Commons have disagreed for the Reason numbered 54, but propose the following Amendments in lieu thereof: Page 15, line 18, after ("Assembly") insert ("Scottish Secretaries and assistants to Scottish Secretaries") Page 15,line 19, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall by order") Page 15,line 32, at end insert— ("(7) No order under this section shall be made unless a draft of it has been laid before and approved by resolution of the House of Commons"). My Lords, in moving these Amendments I should like first to refer to the fact that our original Amendment provided that remuneration for the Assemblymen should be permanently decided by the Members of Parliament at Westminster. I should have thought that there was quite a lot 501 precedent to indicate that this was a desirable state of affairs. We have seen fit to have the Boyle Committee to determine the remuneration of our own MPs and Ministers because it is admittedly a difficult problem for assemblies to decide for themselves. I do not think that we can have been greatly reassured when one member of the Scottish National Party in another place suggested that the proper salary for an Assemblyman would be £8,000 a year—although I do not know that we should necessarily be over-keen to encourage comparisons with the rather miserly and inadequate pay that we make to our MPs in another place: and, of course, the less said about the remuneration in this House the better.
What we have now proposed is that it should be simply a matter of an order in Westminster for the initial determinant of the pay of the Assemblymen. This is a matter which one would have thought that Westminster should debate; that it should not be left simply to the Secretary of State; that the Government might therefore accept this view, bearing in mind that here we are once again setting a pattern for the future on a matter which is of the greatest possible importance. I should add that one of these Amendments, the first one, is purely a small tidying up matter to include people who I imagine were intended to be included in any case.

§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE
My Lords, all that I should like to say is that the process is going on. Here we have another piece of nannying and suggesting that the Assembly need to have their salaries set for them. The Conservative Party in this House have, bit by bit, tried to make major changes in the Bill. Each bit in itself is small but, added up, they come to a major derogation of the purpose of the Bill: the setting up of an Assembly. I do not think that I need say any more. It is wholly unnecessary. Again, they are spending the money, a limited sum; and if they are limited by the sum, then 502 they do not need to be told what salaries they should pay themselves. I am certain that in spite of anything said by any member of the SNP in another place the salary will be very sensible and not extravagant in Scotland—unlike the way they are in England, where they are either too large or far too small.

§ Lord KIRKHILL
My Lords, as I respond, it would be fair to say that there is general recognition that the Government will have to set the initial salaries of the Members, and Members only, in good time for the first elections. If I may say so, that is what Lord Strathcona's Amendment is now dealing with. Clearly, the Assembly cannot do this for the first elections. Potential candidates will need to know the likely level of remuneration. The Bill provides that the Secretary of State may direct what the initial salaries may be. These Amendments propose that the Secretary of State should be required to determine the initial salaries of Members of the Assembly, and Scottish Secretaries and Assistants, by order, subject to Parliamentary procedure, as the noble Lord has indicated.
The Government believe that these Amendment should be rejected for the following reasons: first, there is really little point in referring initial salaries to Parliament if the salaries set by the Secretary of State can be altered by the Assembly at any time once it has been elected. Secondly, Parliament will not be in a position to take a view on the workload of the Assembly. It has been reiterated from time to time in your Lordships' House—certainly from this side—that these are matters for the Assembly to decide. It would be contrary to the Government's approach if Parliament attempted to prescribe through salary how the Assembly should operate. Direction by the Secretary of State is a more flexible approach in keeping with the second leg of Clause 7(1) which provides that the Secretary of State may give directions for regulating the Assembly's procedures pending the making of standing orders.
Thirdly, there is no need to involve either the Secretary of State or Parliament in the determination in advance of initial salaries of Scottish Secretaries and assistants. They cannot be appointed until the Assembly exists and they will not 503 take over their responsibilities for devolved matters until some time after the elections. There will be ample time for the Assembly to make a determination during the transitional period. The other place have carefully considered the proposals which this House came to; and the proposals on these Amendments were specifically mentioned in the debate. Now that they have reached a decision by a significant majority on a Division, I trust that this House will accept that decision and will not insist on the present Amendments.

§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL
My Lords, I do not think that there is enough between us for us to wish to go through the Division Lobbies. I think that the Government do not agree with the Liberals that there is any question of "nannying" here. They accept that somebody has to set the initial salaries, and the Secretary of State appears to be going to do it. I do not believe that they have exactly the same arrangements for the Wales Bill. That is somewhere half way between what they are saying and what we are proposing. However, I do not propose to push this matter any further, if the Government are reluctant. I am prepared to leave it at that and withdraw the Amendments.