HL Deb 19 July 1978 vol 395 cc309-13

2.42 p.m.

Lord DOUGLAS of BARLOCH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what proposals they have for eliminating the use of leaded petrols.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no plans at present to eliminate completely the lead content of petrol. They do however propose to lower the present limit on it to 0.40 grammes per litre from 1st January 1981.

Lord DOUGLAS of BARLOCH

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that extensive experiments in the United States recently have demonstrated that it is possible to produce a petrol by a mixture of maize alcohol, which is at least as efficient as leaded petrols and somewhat cheaper to produce? If that is so, why should we delay?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, we do not think that at present there is evidence of health risk to justify the costs involved. In fact, in the first place, the costs involved in changing over to leadless petrol would be extremely high. But our current policy, which is based on medical advice from the Department of Health and Social Security, is not to allow the total amount of lead emitted from petrol to exceed the limit reached in 1971 of 10,600 tonnes a year. As I pointed out, the present proposal of a reduction by 1st January 1981 should enable us to keep below that level and it is in accordance with a recent EEC Directive.

I think I should also add that not all the results of the studies in the United States are yet available. But from what we have seen we are doubtful about some of the methods of assessment used, and it is certainly not yet completely clear that they have established any causal link between small quantities of lead in the blood and patterns of behaviour. Nevertheless, within the next two years or so we are funding further research which will be designed to help identify the significance of small quantities of lead in the blood and the proportion which is derived from petrol and other sources. Therefore, we are not taking a complacent or unsympathetic attitude to this, but in fact we intend to obtain further evidence.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, will not the noble Baroness at least recognise that at the recent meeting with Denis Howell and members of the Conservation Society, it emerged that there was a difference of opinion between the experts at the Department of Health and those advising the Conservation Society about the effects of small quantities of lead in the bloodstream, particularly among young children; and that this matter is being pursued in discussions between the Department of Health and the Conservation Society?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, yes, I am aware of that, and, as I am sure the noble Lord is also aware, the transmission of lead poisoning is more frequently through food and drink than, in fact, through air pollution. It is in order to establish in relation to air pollution the extent to which there is causal effect that these studies were announced by my right honourable friend and are starting this year. The sum of £150,000 will be spent on them this year and the next two years; then we shall see what further research is required.

Lord PARGITER

My Lords, will my noble friend say what steps are being taken to consult the motor industry with a view to designing engines which will give the same efficiency and performance when lead is abolished as they do now?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, we are looking at this in the longer term, because with more traffic coming on to the roads it may well be, taking a long-term view, that it will be more economical to have a leadless petrol than to reduce the limits. However, there are a number of options open to us on this which are being examined. But, first, we want to establish the extent to which there is a causal connection between lead poisoning, the effects of it and whether any other factors appear.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

My Lords, has the noble Baroness investigated the possibility of industrial alcohol as an additive to petrol?—which would be very much less harmful than lead.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, I think that I ought to write to the noble and learned Lord on that. We are looking at the matter generally. It is true that one of the reasons why the United States and Japan are using lead in petrol is to prevent the fouling of the catalytic exhaust converters which are necessary for compliance with their limits on gaseous emissions. It was not primarily because of lead poisoning. In fact, this is probably relevant to the point that the noble and learned Lord made.

Lord HALE

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there have been reports that in recent monitoring lead particles, both in air and water, have shown a disquieting increase? Can she say whether that is the finding in official tests up till now and, if possible, the extent of the increase?

Baronesss BIRK

My Lords, as I have tried to explain, there have not been enough official findings to be able to reach any conclusion. It is for that reason that my Department is funding further research in order to help identify the significance of the quantities of lead in the blood.

Lord DAVIES of LEEK

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us who have lived near the pottery industry have for many years known of the danger of the use of lead? Consequently, we feel that there is a need for a thorough-going investigation into the increase in pollution. Secondly, and finally, can my noble friend tell me if any experiment is being undertaken in Britain on the catalytic effect of platinum in the exhaust? I must declare a small interest because I am interested in a platinum firm.

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, on the first point that my noble friend made, it is really in order to substantiate how far the lead content enters the blood due to air pollution or through other means that these studies are being taken up. On his second point, I am afraid that I have not got the answer and shall have to write to him about it.

Lord DOUGLAS of BARLOCH

My Lords, may I press my noble friend a little further on this subject? Surely she is aware that it is now possible to dispense with lead in petrol without additional expense, and with as much efficiency as the lead in petrol provides? If so, why delay?

Baroness BIRK

My Lords, it takes more crude fuel to make petrol if the lead content is reduced, and it is estimated that the cost of applying a standard of 0.40 grammes per litre as against our former standard of 0.55 is equivalent to an annual balance of payments cost of roughly £50 million a year. Therefore, there is a pretty high cost involved. There is no estimate yet made of the cost of eliminating lead from petrol altogether. Nevertheless, I would assure noble Lords that if it is found from the research being undertaken that it really is a hazard to health, then the money must be spent.