§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give some amplification of the words of the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in this House on 26th June last (Official Report, col. 29),
without the co-operation of the very substantial Rhodesian elements now outside the internal régime":
whether these words referred to elements within or without Rhodesia; and how the extent of opposition within the country can be assessed without the holding of free elections such as are proposed by the internal settlement leaders.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, in the remark quoted, I was referring to the desirability of involving all the parties, belonging both to the Patriotic Front and to the Salisbury régime, in direct talks for a negotiated settlement. The extent of popular support for each of these parties individually can only be judged in due course by free and fair elections, though I seriously doubt whether such elections can be held in the present climate within the country.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his reply and the amplification of his 1430 words, may I ask him this: Does not the present policy of the Government contain a danger of losing the substance for the shadow? Is not the shadow the continuing illusion that the Patriotic Front leaders can be brought to the conference table with anything except their condition of a victory for a Marxist State in Rhodesia? Does not the substance mean greater support for those within Rhodesia who spurn warfare for political aims, who have admitted majority rule, and who have promised free elections? Is it not better to have a policy based on greater encouragement than has been given hitherto of those in the substance who have made efforts towards—
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will understand that he ought to ask a direct question and not make speech.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, I have no wish to abuse the Rules of the House, but I am putting forward the question in three forms. I could have done so in three supplementaries but I have done it in one. Is it not better to encourage the men in Rhodesia who have admitted the freedom of election rather than hang on to an illusion, which I am afraid will in the long run fail?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I appreciate the noble Lord's concern that we should make progress to get everybody to the conference table. I should like once more to assure him and your Lordships' House that the Patriotic Front have in fact accepted the important principle of free and fair elections leading to independence, and have also indicated their readiness to attend talks with the Salisbury parties. The Salisbury parties for their part have given some indication of being ready to come to such a conference, although their vacillations have certainly been at least as strong as those of some of the members of the Patriotic Front. The Anglo-American mission is still in Southern Africa, and, without putting it too high, I think perceptible progress on those lines is being made.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, for would the noble Lord not agree that the internal settlement has all the makings 1431 of a just settlement? It embodies the Five Principles, and though of course it is true that as yet the internal settlement and those running it have not carried out those principles, would it not be better for the Government to encourage internal settlement while at the same time seeking to associate others who are outside it?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, certainly we are doing everything that we can to encourage the Salisbury régime to give proof of their good intentions by coming unreservedly to a round table conference. If in addition to that they were now to implement some of the promises they made some months ago when they set up their régime, that would be a very great help indeed.
§ Lord WADEMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the practical point is the holding of free elections as soon as possible? It may be a great tragedy that they were not held long ago, but is there anything more that Her Majesty's Government can do to facilitate the holding of elections? That seems to be the vital step.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I entirely agree that the nub of this issue is the holding of free and fair elections at which all parties will be tested as to their policies and, indeed, their good faith for the future. As to how much we can do to assist the present régime to hold meaningful and credible elections, I have very grave doubts. I hope it is within the recollection of the House that I have not been unduly critical of the efforts, wherever they have been made, to advance independence on proper lines, but I have very grave doubts indeed whether credible elections, elections that are seen to be fully participative, free and fair in the sight of everybody, can be held under the present régime. We will do everything we can of course to assist in a mutual régime agreed after a round table conference to go about its first task; namely, to prepare for such free and fair elections.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, arising from the Minister's last reply, may I ask whether it is not inevitable that, if there is an election under the interim proposals, excluding the thousands of Zimbabweans 1432 who are outside, there would be a disastrous civil war? Has not Mr. John Davies on his return from Rhodesia said that the single most important point is that there should be an agreement on the lines which the Government have suggested?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, without being quite as certain as my noble friend as to the consequences of an ill-judged and improperly prepared election, I think there is a fair basis for what he has said. We all wish that this could be possible, but the situation in Rhodesia is such that I believe, without running the risk of misquoting Mr. Davies, he and others who have been there will at least agree that the circumstances and the climate now are not such that we can genuinely say we could organise free elections there. There is every chance that we could help to do that once there had been a round table conference at which all the parties had come together.
§ Lord SOMERSMy Lords, can the noble Lord quote any other case where an organisation such as the Patriotic Front, which has been responsible for guerrilla warfare and the deaths of thousands of innocent people, has been seriously considered as a political Party worthy of being brought to a conference table?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I could give quite a few examples. I would only need to cross St. George's Channel, or, as we call it, the Celtic Sea and quote the eminent example of Mr. Eamon De Valera.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lord, reverting to the first Answer given this afternoon and reverting also to the Minister's reply to a Question on the same date as discussion on the subject of today's Question, he said at column 27 of Hansard on 26th June:
the possibility of a new departure is of course worth studying. I … undertake to bring the words …",and so on. Is the Minister yet able to give any further information as regards the progress of negotiations? That is the first question. Secondly, having given the matter reconsideration, as he said in reply to a Question from the noble Baroness two weeks ago that there should 1433 be some British assistance for the elections, about which he has said a good deal today, is there nothing in progress that he has to report?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I very much regret that I could not add to my Answer two weeks ago on the question of our being able constructively to assist the régime's proposals for elections. As to the progress of the negotiations—that is, of the inquiry and the talks held by the Anglo-American mission of Ambassador Low and Mr. Graham—as I said previously, without putting it too high I believe that perceptible progress is being made.
§ Lord PEARTOrder, please, my Lords. I thought I detected a sense of noble Lords wishing to proceed.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, I would agree with the noble Lord after I have put my question. Is not the truth of the matter that Muzorewa wants an election because he knows he will win it, and the Patriotic Front are determined to prevent having an election for exactly the same reason?