§ 3.25 p.m.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their purpose in coutinuing to seek a conference between the Rhodesian Administration and the external Communist-slanted personalities they appear to favour, when, from Press reports, all appear to have misgivings as to participation.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it remains the Government's objective to work for a satisfactory settlement, and a ceasefire, through negotiation. Consultations with all the parties are continuing. We believe there is a fair prospect of bringing them together in round-table talks quite soon.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. But, alas, it gives no more information. Would he agree that there are two clear courses: either to support the de facto internal black administration or to support the external Communist-paid stooges who aimed at domination by force and violence? Therefore, is it not time—and time runs out; it was urged in this House last week that there should be a change in policy in a matter of days—that, since the first course does work, whereas the second has not brought a response to help in the first, Britain should cease to support an external policy or activity which aimed to bring disruption on territory for which Britain is responsible?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords much as I admire the noble Lord's speech on the question—which I have heard before—I must remain at variance with him. I do not think that it is a question of choosing between the two alternatives that he mentioned. Indeed, our best efforts must be to avoid the situation that we here or those in Africa have to choose between the two courses. We must seek to bring them together. There are elements in both parties, in Salisbury and outside, who are prepared to talk and work for a reasonable solution. That is what we are doing in partnership with our American friends and through the Graham-Low mission at the moment. As to his suggestion that the first of the two alternatives, by which I thought he meant the Salisbury alternative, does work, I suggest that the noble Lord refreshes his mind as to what some of the leaders of the internal régime have said very honestly about their misgivings about the way that system is not working.
I hope that I do not make a point in polemical fashion. I hope that we can look forward quite soon to a round table conference at which the Patriotic Front and the elements of the Salisbury régime will get together, possibly under our chairmanship, to discuss how best to effect a peaceful transition in Rhodesia to independence.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask the Minister this: Would it not be more realistic and more constructive if noble Lords opposite stopped their obsessions about what they call "Communist-slanted personalities", and began to understand the massive hatred that has been built up in Africa since the beginning of the century against white people under the various systems of race discrimination and apartheid?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is of no help to take that attitude. Rhodesia is not the only part of the world where implacable hatreds, racial or sectional, have polarised an issue almost beyond solution. I think there is time in Rhodesia to avoid that situation and I think most people are working to that end.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, may I ask the Minister just one question: In the light of the appalling 1173 series of murders which Mr. Mugabe has both instigated and approved of, would he personally be prepared to sit down with Mr. Mugabe?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, yes, indeed; and so, in his more generous and statesmanlike moments, would be my noble friend, I think. If the objective were to be peaceful transition for all peoples in Rhodesia to independence, I am sure that he and I would sit down with anybody who could contribute at that moment to that end.
As to the responsibility for the attrocities, views vary as to the originators and I do not think anything useful can be done bandying about words and accusations as to who is responsible for which. We must oppose them, whatever their origin and whatever their alleged idealogical justification, and the best way to do that is to substitute conference for conflict and to work as hard as we can for a round-table conference.
Lord SAINT OSWALDMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in the last week the Reverend Ndabaningi Sithole has appeared in the European Parliament as a guest there and has impressed every delegate with whom he spoke—and he spoke with many—to the effect that the solution has already been found to this deep and bloody disturbance in Rhodesia? Is the noble Lord aware that the only ones who appear to be standing in the way of this solution are in fact those outside Rhodesia?—that is to say, the terrorist leaders who appear to have the backing of our own country and of the United States. That is a most unfortunate situation, but that is the impression given to us in the European Parliament by the Reverend Sithole, and I hope that the noble Lord the Minister can in fact contradict this impression.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, with all respect to the Reverend Sithole, his views and interpretations are not shared by everybody; and this makes it all the more necessary that he, as a responsible and indeed highly able leader of a section of Rhodesian opinion, should, with others, come together in conference, express his views and proffer his suggestions.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, would my noble friend not consider that for this House to refer to African leaders, who have been fighting against a régime which is rebellious against the Crown and this Parliament, as "external Communist-slanted personalities", is most unhelpful in the tragic situation in Rhodesia? Would he not agree that it is rather like describing Winston Churchill as a Communist because of his alliance with Joseph Stalin? Is he further aware that those who have retained their friendship with the rebel régime would do better to persuade Ian Smith and that régime to come to a genuine national conference, as proposed by the British and American Governments, than to cast slurs on African leaders?
§ Several noble Lords: Next business!
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I think there is a desire for the next business.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords—
§ Several noble Lords: Order! order!
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, may I say to the noble Lord that I did stop another noble Lord whom I think probably should have preceded him if I had allowed him. I think we have had a good run on this Question.