§ 2.53 p.m.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is still their policy to take into national ownership all the major ports.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the Government remain committed to ports reorganisation.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, in thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I ask her whether she is aware that at one time, at any rate, the Labour Party committed themselves, not only to reorganisation but to nationalisation? I am asking whether it is still their intention that the reorganisation should take the form of national ownership. May I further ask the noble Baroness whether she agrees that, if that is so, the sooner the Government make an announcement about this the better it will be for all those concerned with or dependent upon the ports?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, with respect, the noble Lord is under a misapprehension. We at no time said that we were going to nationalise the ports. We said that we would take them under a form of public ownership and control, which is different. As far as our policy is concerned at the moment, it would need major legislation to bring in any form of public control, and there is no Parliamentary time in this Session for it. What we have done is to issue two different consultative documents about ports reorganisation. The most recent of these was in April 1975. We pointed out then that there was perhaps a reason for establishing a strong National Ports Authority, that there might be some provision for the public ownership of private statutory port undertakings, and that there might be a retention or an extension of local rather than national public ownership. Those are the three basic features of that last consultative document, and they have been the subject of considerable and extensive consultation with the unions and with outside bodies. The Secretary of State for Transport has been looking at the various ways in which the desired reorganisation might be achieved, and is still working on the lines of those three major points of the last consultative document. But nothing will be done without considerably more consultation at all levels.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness this question, because I have become rather confused. Does that mean that any future Labour Government will or will not nationalise the ports?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, it depends on the manifesto at the time when the Election is held. At the moment we have for consideration, for all sections of the industry and for the Party, the consultative document of 1975. Consultations are still proceeding on that. I am advised that anything on the lines suggested in the consultative document would mean major primary legislation and some secondary legislation, which might take up to two years to prepare. So I can safely say, with November of next year being the final date for this Government, that there will be no nationalisation within the lifetime of this Government.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, does that mean that the next Labour Government will or will not nationalise the ports?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I cannot speak at this time for what will be in the next manifesto.
§ Lord ANNANMy Lords, has the noble Baroness any information whether the Conservative Party is about to denationalise the coal industry?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I only know of the rumours, referred to by the noble Baroness opposite, of various forms of policy; and the rumours are that the coal industry is going to be denationalised and that transport is going to be denationalised. All kinds of other horrific things have been put up for consultation, as this has.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that this Question is about port nationalisation and has nothing whatever to do with coal nationalisation?
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, did my noble friend observe that the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, Lord Carrington, displayed remarkable optimism when, on two occasions, when he put his two questions, he referred to a future Labour Government?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I said "any" future Labour Government?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord meant the next Government.
Viscount ROCHDALEMy Lords, if the answer of the noble Baroness means that there might be nationalisation, and if that intention were to be based on the success of the British Transport Docks Board, which is a nationalised body—a success which no one will denigrate or deny—will they remember that, in the view of many of us who have studied this matter, the success of the Docks Board has been due to the very considerable degree of competition from other forms of ownership of docks, both trusts and other forms of private ownership; and that if that competition were removed it would be very unlikely that one could rely on the same degree of success of the Docks Board as we have had in the past?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I accept that the British Transport Docks Board has been an extremely successful organisation. What I said in my original Answer was that we were committed to port reorganisation. We are not committed to nationalisation: we are committed to public ownership and control. Noble Lords opposite do not accept that this is different, but there are different ways of getting public ownership and control, in which one may still be in competition with another.