§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their representations to the Spanish Government have resulted in any alleviation of the Spanish measures against Gibraltar.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, exchanges with the Spanish Government have resulted in a much improved atmosphere with regard to the Gibraltar question. There has been an increase in direct contact between all concerned. Although there has been no general alleviation of Spanish measures, the telephone link between Spain and Gibraltar was restored just before Christmas.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, does it follow from that Answer that there has been no alleviation either in respect of the closing of the land frontier or of the restrictions imposed on the airport? In view of the fact that as long ago as last May the noble Lord, Lord Oram, indicated to the House that Her Majesty's Government were making strong representations in this respect, is that not an extraordinarily disappointing state of affairs? What are the Government going to do about it?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, when I said that there was "no general alleviation", I qualified that by saying that there has been an improvement in the atmosphere between the two countries. There has been an increase in direct contact which is, surely, a very good thing to happen, and I gave an instance of how the Spanish Government authorities had moved somewhat in the direction of restoring communications. An instance is the telephone link which was restored just before Christmas and is still maintained. I think that we may take heart from the fact that leading Spaniards have visited Gibraltar and have talked to Gibraltarians and in that way have heard at first hand—some of them for the first time—exactly what are the feelings of Gibraltarians. We in this country are well aware of those feelings. It is greatly helpful that the Spanish people and their leaders should be equally aware of them.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, will the Minister tell us whether 657 the situation is as it was when I was there last: that is to say, that people working in Gibraltar can communicate with their close relations in Spain only by shouting across a frontier under threat of the rifles of the frontier guards? Is there any such situation anywhere else except on the Berlin Wall?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend gives a somewhat colourful description of the situation between Gibraltar and the rest of the Iberian Peninsular, but I cannot fault him. We deplore the fact that normal communications between Gibraltar and the rest of the Peninsula have not been restored and we are working hard to restore them. We find in the attitude of a democratic Spain a much more helpful posture than in that of the old Spain.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, while welcoming what the noble Lord said, cannot the Government persuade the Spanish authorities that the continuation of these restrictions is a bar and a handicap to any rational discussion of the future of Gibraltar; since any Government of this country under that pressure are bound, if they make any concessions at all, to be accused of surrender so long as the pressure continues?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble and learned Lord has enunciated a principle of great validity in situations of this kind and not only in respect of the Gibraltar question. We have recently had exchanges about Belize and about the Falklands. As the noble and learned Lord has reminded us, it is surely much better, in relation to colonies and areas like this, to behave in a helpful and friendly way rather than to impose difficulties and inconveniences which can only have an adverse effect on the very purposes that those applying those difficulties have in mind.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether it is true, as is reported this morning, that Spain has proposed that Britain should retain the naval base while Gibraltar becomes part of Spain?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think that my noble friend is referring to certain Press reports; but we have not received anything from any official Spanish quarter on those lines. Therefore I cannot comment at this stage.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, if this difficult situation is to be resolved by stages could the next stage be, while Gibraltar remains land locked, the establishment of direct sea communications with Algeciras across the Bay of Algeciras instead of by the very roundabout way through Tangier?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, this is certainly a point for further consideration. It has been given consideration in the past and is present in our minds at the moment. Clearly, it takes two to implement any arrangement, even the arrangement which my noble friend has described. I am grateful to him for his suggestion. I shall certainly have another look at what he has said.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, could my noble friend remember that one of the methods by which the Franco Government hoped to cripple Gibraltar was by withdrawing Spanish labour from the dockyards? Would it not be a good start to better relationships if the Government were to suggest that the Spanish dockers who were rendered unemployed by the Franco régime were now allowed to go back to work in the dockyards of Gibraltar?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I think my noble friend a former Secretary of State for the Colonies, will agree with me that that consideration may have occurred, certainly to the democratic Government of Spain; if it has not, I am sure that we will take a friendly, early opportunity of reminding them.
Lord MORRISMy Lords, in view of the positive and constructive talk held on 24th November last in Strasbourg between Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and his opposite number, Sr. Marcelino Oreja Aguirre, would not Her Majesty's Government deem it appropriate at this juncture to ensure that these helpful exchanges continue in the near future?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for intervening in the way he has. It gives me an opportunity to emphasise that the meeting which my right honourable friend had with the Foreign Minister of Spain, Sr. Oreja, in Strasbourg last November, was indeed friendly and constructive. In reply to the noble Lord's supplementary question. I am glad to state to the House that it is hoped to arrange a further meeting as early as possible this year.