§ 3.16 p.m.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many agreements covering how many workers have been made between employers and trade unions relating to increases in remuneration since 31st July 1977; how many agreements covering how many workers have provided for overall increases in remuneration of 6 per cent. or less; how many agreements covering how many workers have provided for increases exceeding 6 per cent. but not exceeding 10 per cent.; and how many agreements covering how many workers have made provision for increases in excess of 10 per cent.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, since 31st July, major settlements under the current pay policy have been reached covering over 2¼ million workers, nearly 95 per cent. of whom have received increases within the Government's guidelines.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, can the noble Lord indicate whether the settlements so far are completely consistent with the requirements laid down last summer by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the avoidance of a recrudescence of inflation in the autumn?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, as I have indicated, 95 per cent. of the settlements covering 2¼ million workers are within the Government's guidelines—in accordance with Government policy. I would add that others are still under re-negotiation where they had exceeded them.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, does that indicate that wage increases have been well below the inflation rate? May I also ask how much longer trade unionists will be expected to accept a diminution of their standard of living?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, trade unionists have played a very fine part in this business, although they have been under extreme provocation. It is a tribute to them and others who have been insistent on this policy being carried out that we are now in a position where the rate of inflation in Britain is coming down. The workers involved should be congratulated, although they themselves must be completely frustrated; but at least they have put their country's interest first.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, while I suppose that all of us would wish to join in the satisfaction displayed by the noble Lord at the large proportion of workers who have accepted the Government's guidelines, may I ask the Minister to say whether the extreme parsimony of the details of his answers as compared with the precision of the questions asked was due to the unavailability of the information, to the latter's great complexity or to the fact that, if given in detail, it would have been embarrassing?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the answer to the last part of the noble and learned Lord's question is, no. The Question raised a number of detailed points and, as for the percentages sought, I can explain why the Government cannot give the figures in the way requested. Settlements are monitored in terms of their compliance with the Government's pay policy and not their percentage level. It is the earnings out-turn and not the percentage level of settlements which is important. It is not just the level of the settlement that indicates compliance with the Government's pay policy; there are several other factors, such as compliance with the 12-month rule, the extent of any earnings increase apart from the settlement and whether any part of the settlement is justified as a self-financing productivity deal. This is a very complex matter and I am satisfied that the Department is monitoring it with extreme care.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, while appreciating that, as the noble Lord said, this is a complex matter, may I ask him whether his original Answer takes into account or excludes wage drift?
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is quite obvious that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, and the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, would like an answer that is embarrassing to the Government? Cannot my noble friend manage to do something for them in that regard?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the only embarrassment I feel is that I am facing, an Opposition which does not have any policy and which would revert to the old law of the jungle so far as wages and profits are concerned.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that there is no lack of answers which the Government give which prove highly embarrassing to them, and that, to us, it is a question only of embarras de richesses?
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the figures he has before him show the number of company directors who have received large increases in their fees and remuneration during this particular period; and is he aware of the fact that some of them have had very large increases indeed, running into many thousands of pounds a year?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I cannot comment on that. I do not want to start scheduling different categories of workers. I believe directors are classified as "workers".
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, will the noble Lord consult with his noble friend the Leader of the House?—because, while he gave an Answer, he did not answer this Question, and that is not a good practice to start.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I explained to the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, the reason why I could not give him an Answer in the detail which he requested. I should have liked to, but it was not possible because the Question did not meet the requirements of the Department's records.