§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the decision to increase defence expenditure by 3 per cent. between now and 1980 will include increases in the pay of all ranks in the Forces.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, our intention is to increase defence spending by 3 per cent. a year in real terms in 1979–80 and 1980–81, subject, in the case of the latter year, to review in the light of our economic circumstances. Since public expenditure planning is carried out at constant survey prices, no allowance is made in these plans for future pay and prices increases. Provision will be made for such increases when the time comes, and will be additional to the 3 per cent. real increase.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I am very grateful for that informative reply, but does it not indicate that we require two debates on the subject of defence: one, the ordinary debate on defence, the question of whether we can afford another 3 per cent. and what effect it will have; and the other, in the event of a recommendation by the Review Board affecting pay and allowances, a debate on manpower and salary questions? Would it not require two debates?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I made no such implication. I am not in a position to arrange what debates are undertaken. These are matters for the usual channels.
§ Earl CATHCARTMy Lords, bearing in mind the various productivity schemes and schemes for job re-assessment which have been awarded to many wage earners and which have led to an increase in their take-home pay in excess of 10 per cent., will Her Majesty's Government take urgent measures to devise steps similar to these schemes for the Armed Forces so that the "x" factor may be properly respected and in order to acknowledge and recognise the many non-military tasks that have consistently been given to the Armed Forces?
Lord WINTER BOTTOMMy Lords, we all await the report of the Armed Forces Review Body, and I think that it might be more appropriate to discuss this matter when we know what recommendations they will make to Her Majesty's Government.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, although my noble friend has no authority to determine procedure in the matter of debates, would he not agree that it would be invidious if we had a defence debate only to discover that the majority of noble Lords wanted to talk about manpower, pay and allowances—a very important subject—and thus not talk about defence at all? Would he not agree to make representations to his right honourable friend and to my noble friend the Chief Whip to convey to other Chief Whips that we might have two debates, one distinctly to consider defence, and the other to consider the question of manpower, pay and allowances?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I can only repeat what I have said earlier. My noble friends are listening and they will decide what course the House should take in conjunction with noble Lords opposite.