HL Deb 22 February 1978 vol 389 cc162-4

3.8 p.m.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they take into account the effects upon United Kingdom invisible exports, as distinct from visible trade, in their aid policy towards underdeveloped countries.

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, yes. In general, the aid programme gives a direct stimulus to invisible exports from the United Kingdom. The economic development which our aid programme seeks to provide naturally adds to the volume of both invisible and visible exports.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply; but is she aware that the proposed deal with India appears to be virtually giving away ships as aid at a time of a world surplus and with many ships laid up? India certainly needs aid for her rural areas, but not in shipping. At present, India carries half the trade between Britain and India. As these ships will be competing directly with British merchant vessels, are the Government taking this fully into account in the arrangement?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

Yes, indeed, my Lords. We are very much aware of the whole question of Indian shipping. We are also aware of the over-capacity of shipping and in many international meetings have done our part to try to reduce that. I am sure that the House will understand that India would have bought these ships from somewhere else—Japan, possibly. In any case, the competition would have been there. Her Majesty's Government considered that it would be a good idea for aid to be given which would at the same time provide employment for people in areas of Britain where there is high unemployment.

Viscount ECCLES

My Lords, can I ask the Minister whether the teaching of English and also the training of technicians in developing countries figure largely enough in our aid programme? Would it not be a good thing to give the British Council rather more resources?—because, with the furtherance of English teaching and particularly with the training of the young men and women who service the plant which goes abroad under physical aid programmes, we should be benefiting both ourselves and them.

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, as the noble Viscount will know, we have a very large technical co-operation programme: I think it was about £124 million last year. Of course we do a great amount of teaching of the language and of training of people to run the plants. We do a great deal for invisible exports of all kinds, but we did feel that India needed the ships, and wanted the ships. If we had not done this under our aid programme, someone else would have provided them.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that, if we taught more of these Commonwealth citizens the English language it would make more of them eager to come to this country—and that would get us into trouble with Mrs. Thatcher?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, I think that my noble friend has a marvellous command of the English language.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY

My Lords, while I accept that there are cases where other countries might supply ships, is the noble Baroness aware that, in this case, the British shipping industry believes that no other country would have supplied these ships had they not come as aid from this country? Will the Government also bear in mind that India charges a turnover tax on British shipping, whereas there is no equivalent tax which Britain charges on Indian shipping?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, as I think the noble Lord will know, my right honourable friend the Minister has met the General Council of British Shipping and is very much aware of their views on this. They have been taken into account. I do not think there is really anything more I can add. It is not our information that India would not have obtained ships from elsewhere: rather to the contrary.