§ Lord KILBRACKENMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, to facilitate visits from relatives, they will arrange for Irish prisoners to be transferred (so far as is possible) to prisons in Britain within relatively easy reach of Belfast or Dublin, as appropriate.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich)My Lords, many other factors affect the decision in which prison a person should serve his or her sentence, and I regret that as a consequence there is comparatively little scope for placing Irish prisoners in prisons in easy reach of Belfast or Dublin, particularly if they are serving long sentences or are in high security categories.
§ Lord KILBRACKENMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether, bearing in mind that accessibility for visits from relatives is a factor which is normally taken into account, he will consider the possibility that more category A prisoners should be moved from prisons, for example, in the Isle of Wight, which are so situated that it is very difficult for visits to be made from Ireland, in favour of prisons such as Long Lartin which are very much easier to visit?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, if I may deal with the first part of the question, the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, says that, so far as visits from relations are concerned, accessibility is a factor in determining where prisoners 922 should be sent. That indeed is so but, as I pointed out in my Answer, we also have to take into account the security factor involved. Quite obviously, it is impossible to move people convicted of major terrorist crimes, to take one example, to prisons which do not have very high security. I must say to the noble Lord that I do not think it would be right to create new dispersal prisons costing many millions of pounds, simply to make visiting easier, regrettable though the circumstances may be.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, would the Minister look at this question from the point of view of individuals? Is he aware that there are cases where it is almost impossible for parents to bear the expense of flying to this country?—sometimes they may be ill and cannot make the journey. As the Home Office is so considerate in enabling prisoners in this country to have visits from their relatives, would they look at each individual case and seek to adopt some method which would be more humane?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHCertainly, my Lords. We do not want to keep prisoners an unreasonable distance from their relations; on the other hand, I must point out to my noble friend that we could not possibly contemplate a situation where we moved high-risk prisoners to prisons which do not have sophisticated security systems. That being so, I am afraid I cannot offer him very much hope that we shall be able to meet him on the point that he makes. Certainly, in cases where the families of prisoners do not have adequate resources, there are means by which they can receive assistance from social security agencies; and I think that is the way we should proceed rather than creating new dispersal prisons simply in order to make visiting easier. I do not believe that would in fact be a right or proper way of proceeding.
§ Lord KILBRACKENMy Lords, may I ask the Minister this final question: Did he not notice that I never suggested that any new dispersal prisons should be erected? My suggestion was that prisoners should be transferred from certain existing dispersal prisons to others which provide exactly the same security facilities as already exist.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHYes, my Lords, but the problem is that there are only seven dispersal prisons. We have to move high-risk prisoners from one to another for a variety of reasons, in which security is undoubtedly a factor. What I am saying to the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, is that I am afraid it is absolutely impossible to put all Irish prisoners in one maximum security prison which is nearer to Ireland than any other dispersal prison, because there simply are not enough facilities in any one dispersal prison to take up to 100 IRA prisoners who at the moment are serving sentences in this country.