HL Deb 13 December 1978 vol 397 cc553-5

2.49 p.m.

Lord WIGODER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have yet been able to assess the likely cost to public funds (if any) that would be involved in bringing into effect Section 48 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 (power to make rules as to furnishing of information by prosecutor in criminal proceedings) and when they anticipate being able to draft these rules.

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, consultations are still taking place about the nature and cost of possible schemes for a greater degree of advance disclosure of the prosecution case in trials by magistrates' courts. It was made clear during the passage of the Criminal Law Bill that implementation of Section 48 would depend on economic circumstances. The cost of any such scheme now seems likely to be in excess of the figure of £4 million a year previously estimated. Until a firmer estimate is available work cannot usefully be put into drafting rules.

Lord WIGODER

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him this question: In assessing the cost of a reform whereby defendants at magistrates' courts would be entitled to know the nature of the case against them, has any allowance been made for the public money which will be saved, first of all, by some defendants pleading guilty instead of contesting the case and, secondly, by defendants electing, where offences are triable either way, to be dealt with summarily rather than going for trial to the Crown Court and cluttering up the lists there?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, I am sure that that point will be borne in mind. It is a point that was vigorously made by the noble Lord and other Members of your Lordships' House when we discussed this matter. The cost of this scheme appears to be creeping up and at the moment I cannot give any clear indication of what the total costs will be.

Lord GARDINER

My Lords, may I ask whether in assessing the cost the Government have acted on any information except that from the police?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, not unreasonably, it is the police whom we have to consult in matters of this kind, but those involved in the preliminary discussions included the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Prosecuting Solicitors' Society, the Justices' Clerks' Society and a large number of other people.

Earl FORTESCUE

My Lords, can the noble Lord give any estimate as to how many extra cases would be heard in magistrates' courts if Section 48 was brought into effect?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, no. It is impossible to achieve any clear estimate of that.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE

My Lords, taking motoring cases alone, which form much of the staple diet of magistrates' courts, would it not be possible without incurring additional expense to ensure that in, for example, the charge of careless driving the motorist could be told at any rate the substance of the charge against him instead of it just being stated that, for instance, he had been driving carelessly at a particular time and at a particular place? Could it not be said in the summons that he was, say, driving on the wrong side or the road, or had jumped the lights, or had cut in, or something of that sort, so that he would know what he had to meet?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, we are aware that many people are firmly in favour of a proposition of the kind that the noble and learned Lord has advocated, and, indeed, in other cases as well; but one must also take account of the costs involved. One of the problems is that those who favour changes of this character in the law sometimes understate the cost of the proposal if implemented. I shall certainly take note of what the noble and learned Lord has said.

Lord WIGODER

My Lords, may we have a clear statement that if the costs prove to be reasonable the Government are in favour of introducing this reform?

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, I made it clear on a number of occasions during the passage of the Bill that we do not believe it possible to bring this particular section into effect until economic circumstances permit. There are many claims on public resources. This is an important claim on them, but I cannot commit the Government beyond that point today.