§ 2.54 p.m.
§ Baroness SHARPLESMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what sort of encouragement they are giving to trade unions to hold secret 413 ballots rather than mass meetings when deciding matters of national importance.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the Government are aware of criticism of mass meetings as a medium for taking decisions, and share some of the reservations that have been expressed about these. They have said on several occasions that if the trade union movement as a whole were to seek Government financial assistance for postal ballots they would be prepared to consider the matter. The Government, however, do not think it would be either effective or helpful for them to intervene unilaterally, or to introduce legislation making strike ballots compulsory.
§ Baroness SHARPLESMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply and trying to be helpful, may I ask whether the noble Lord would agree that ACAS might be able to play a part in this matter, in that, if the employers and the unions agreed, they might be able to supervise a ballot at the place of work?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, there are several ways in which ballots, where they take place, are supervised. A number of unions have ballot rules, and when their ballots take place they are properly supervised; so I do not think ACAS could come into the picture. ACAS are more concerned with the settlement of disputes and with advising people on how to conduct negotiations.
§ Lord DUNCAN-SANDYSMy Lords, could the noble Lord say whether this is one of the reforms which is being pressed upon the Government by the National Executive of their Party?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, that is a matter upon which it is not my province to pass comment.
§ Lord TAYLOR of MANSFIELDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is one union which cannot call a stoppage of work without there being, first, a secret ballot and, secondly, a 55 per cent. vote in favour of a strike? Is he further aware that none of the officials, from national level right down to branch level, can be elected without there being a secret ballot?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I thank my noble friend. He is referring, of course, to the National Union of Mineworkers, but I would remind him that there are other unions which have such rules and conduct a postal ballot.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, bearing in mind that in the United States big firms have to negotiate with far fewer unions than is the case in this country, can the noble Lord say to what extent, if any, what is recommended by the noble Baroness in her Question is the practice in the United States?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I would rather concern myself with our domestic trade unions and industrial matters, the subject with which the House is actually concerned and is debating.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, could the noble Lord answer the Question that my noble friend put down on the Order Paper? She specifically asked whether any encouragement is being given, and the noble Lord has not answered that Question. By now the Government should have a view whether secret ballots are good or bad. Are they prepared to encourage them if they think they are good, or are they prepared to announce that they think that secret ballots are not good?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I can only ask the noble Lord to read Hansard tomorrow and see the Answer that I gave. The Government have expressed their view and the Prime Minister has expressed his view; and if the noble Lord had turned up for the debate on the Unstarred Question last Wednesday he would know that I answered the question, too.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, does the noble Lord not realise, if I may refer to his first reply, that the noble Baroness's Question does not ask for compulsory legislation or anything like that, but asks for encouragement? Is it not possible for the Government to give a much more positive lead in encouraging other unions to follow the example of the few in using a proper ballot, rather than a show of hands at a mass meeting, as a means of deciding whether to start a 415 strike or to stop a strike? Do the Government not realise that the great majority of the people in this country demand such encouragement?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYYes, my Lords; and the people in this country do not want legislation introduced such as was introduced in the past. The Government can give encouragement, as noble Lords themselves can give it, but in the last analysis—and here I state quite definitely that the British trade union set-up is quite democratic—
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYYes, my Lords. Noble Lords opposite may not have belonged to a union or understand the ramifications, but in our British democracy it is possible for a trade union branch, when the members turn up and demand a ballot, to pass it on and eventually change the union rules. This is what is wanted, because some strikers have expressed that hope. It is up to them to get on with the job and organise themselves within their own union.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYBut, my Lords, will the Government encourage this, on which I believe, quite across Party boundaries, this country has a strong wish to be encouraged? Governments do have a duty to encourage as well as just to legislate.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYYes, certainly, my Lords, Governments do encourage, but some do not want to force anything by legislation. That is the difference between us; and although the Party opposite has dodged the issue, it has been stated that in the last analysis they will introduce legislation on ballots in their policy for the next Election. If that is so, they will repeat a very serious mistake that happened last time.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, will the noble Lord accept that the response to the Question asked this afternoon is an indication of the very warm welcome that is being widely given to the statement of the Prime Minister in another place on 7th November, when he agreed that a mass meeting concerning the Ford strike was not a satisfactory way of conducting 416 our affairs? Will he further agree that it has also been shown this afternoon that there would be wide support from all sections of the House if the Government were to give a more positive lead in this matter?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. The Government and the Prime Minister have already set an example; and ACAS, as the noble Lord and others may be aware, are considering several issues with a view to bringing out another industrial charter. We can give every positive assurance that we are encouraging as far as possible. I would also ask that noble Lords who have been critical should themselves do a little encouraging instead of trying to obstruct the progress of well-intentioned people to get some better state of industrial democracy.
§ Lord KINNAIRDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that three or four days ago there was a mass meeting of workers at one of these firms like Ford or Leyland? They had taken a show of hands and, from the balcony, whoever was in charge said, "In favour", while somebody down in the crowd said "No!" Is the Minister aware that there was a television camera and team present there and the man in the crowd was asked: "Why are you not satisfied?" He replied: "Because you cannot possibly count these tens of thousands of people—and a great many people hold up two hands to vote instead of one."
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I am not such a constant student of television as all that, but in fact the trouble is that the media has not been helpful in these matters. If the trade union member concerned complained that it was not a fair result then he should press for a ballot system if he can get support for it. There are times when a mass meeting like that can give a very good indication of support and there are times when it is doubtful. We want, as far as possible, to remove any possible doubts.
§ Lord ENERGLYNMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the absence of secret ballots there is evidence of intimidation among technical staffs even in our universities?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, evidence of intimidation has to be advanced to be studied. If the noble Lord has any clear evidence of intimidation, I should be glad to receive it and send it on for investigation.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, to modify the famous words of the Duke of Wellington, "He may be encouraging the unions but, my goodness! he is discouraging me."?
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, if the noble Lord is so keen on these shows of hands at mass meetings why does he not recommend it for Parliamentary elections? I think we abolished that about a hundred years ago.