§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in the event of all flights to and from the Iberian peninsula now based on Heathrow airport being transferred to Gatwick either on 1st April next or at some other date they are satisfied that adequate facilities will be available for passengers; who will be responsible for seeing that this is so; and whether they will make a statement.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, Gatwick airport has been completely redeveloped at a cost of £100 million and its extensive new facilities are among the most modern in the world. The airport has a capacity for 16 million passengers a year, although last year it handled only 7 million. The Government are satisfied that Gatwick offers a high standard of service to both passengers and airlines, and are working closely with the British Airports Authority to ensure that the transfer of air services from Heathrow is effected as smoothly as possible.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, while hoping I do not sound rude, may I ask my noble friend if she is aware that none of that Answer is relevant to the point I am pursuing? Is she further aware that on 18th January we shall be 406 able to look at this matter in detail and that I wish to be helpful? Is she also aware that there are no facilities at all for passengers with luggage to get from Victoria to the airport at Gatwick short of going up two flights of stairs, that they are not able to take trolleys through the gateway where tickets are issued, and that there are very few porters?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I do not want to enter into an argument with my noble friend about whether she is or I am being rude in not answering or asking the right sort of Questions, and I look forward to 18th January when we can go into the matter in more detail. To answer the last point of her supplementary, that is primarily a matter for British Rail and I have no doubt they will take note of what she said. More generally, the British Airports Authority maintains a close liaison with British Rail, and the present redevelopment of Gatwick Railway Station includes the installation of escalators from the station platform to the overhead walkway into the airport terminal.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEWithout seeking an immediate reply, my Lords, but in order to stimulate the well known zeal of British Rail in their independent functions, may I ask the Minister to make inquiries as to what facilities they provide for those who, like myself, are unable to walk very far?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I will certainly make inquiries as to what are the present proceedings, but as to future proceedings I am sure the noble and learned Lord will be able to use the escalators that are being provided.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, would be able to go up in the goods lift whereas ordinary passengers are not able to do that?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I should hate to associate the noble and learned Lord with goods, whether at airports or on British Rail.
§ Earl AMHERSTMy Lords, in view of the reply which the Minister gave last week to my noble friend Lord Gladwyn, may I ask her to say if and when we shall 407 be able to know the detailed plans which she mentioned for the improvement of the services, and perhaps debate them? Shall we know them before they become finalised for implementation?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, at the moment I am not in a position to give the noble Earl an answer as to when we shall know the exact plans, but I will make inquiries and if it is possible to get further details out before our debate in January, I will make sure he is advised.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, is my noble friend really telling the House that the escalator will be in service by 1st April?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is only as a result of the Questions put by my noble friend Lady Burton that there has been any amelioration in conditions for passengers travelling from the centre of London to either airport? Is she also aware that the position at Gatwick is totally unsatisfactory from the point of view of passengers with luggage?
§ Baroness STEDMANAs I said, my Lords, we are trying to do something about passengers with luggage and I hope to be in a position to give more information about that on 18th January. I yield to no one in my admiration of the tenancity of my noble friend in the way in which, on behalf of passengers using British Airways, she pummels away at British Airways, British Rail and me and other Ministers who have stood at this Dispatch Box before me.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, the Minister has given a good description of Gatwick of the future, but that will take several years to achieve. Should there not be a review here and now to see what can be done to improve travel and the comfort and facilities of passengers during this interim period? That is what we should like to know.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, up to the present we have spent £100 million on improving facilities at Gatwick. They may not be as good as noble Lords and 408 others would like, but the fact remains that Gatwick can cope with twice as many passengers as it has to at the moment, whereas at Heathrow the position is becoming even more congested the whole time we go on with this situation and do not transfer traffic to Gatwick. Surely it is in the consumers' and clients' interests that we should have an easier transfer of some of the airlines to Gatwick and not completely break down at Heathrow.
§ Earl AMHERSTMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, quite apart from the expected 900,000 passengers, the present situation regarding the rail facilities is quite unsatisfactory? This is because most of the trains servicing Gatwick in each direction are through trains to other destinations. Therefore, when it comes to getting a seat the air passengers have to take their chance with the other passengers. However, the air passengers frequently have a considerable amount of bulky baggage which perforce is dumped into the aisles of the trains, making entry into the trains and departure from them a very disturbing and time-wasting procedure. Should there be any kind of emergency, this situation makes it quite impossible for sections of the train to be evacuated quickly. Does this not——
§ Earl AMHERSTMay I continue to ask a question?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I am not sure whether I have got the entire train of all the questions which the noble Earl asked, but this is primarily a matter for British Rail. I am sure that British Rail take note of what is said in this House, and I shall certainly see that the noble Earl's comments about the present conditions are brought to the attention of British Rail.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I, as one who uses Gatwick and lives near there, press the noble Baroness on this matter? The impression is given not that this is a matter of £100 million but that no one has a grip on the problem and the buck is being passed from one organisation to another, with nothing happening in the end as a result. This is a matter which ought to be taken very seriously indeed.
§ Baroness STEDMANWe do take it very seriously, my Lords. I was under the impression that the buck was beginning to stop with me at this Dispatch Box, but I shall certainly bring the matter to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, who is responsible for the Department, and to the attention of British Rail.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is my noble friend—
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I sense that the House is probably waiting for me to express the feeling of your Lordships to the effect that we should move on to the next Question.