§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it remains their policy that as from 1st April next all flights to and from the Iberian peninsula based on Heathrow airport shall be transferred to Gatwick; and taking the figures for April to September 1978 how many passengers they estimate will be affected in the six-month period April to September 1979.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, in recent discussions with the Spanish and Portuguese Governments, we have indicated a readiness to be flexible on the timing and to engage in further talks about the transfer to Gatwick of scheduled services between London and the Iberian peninsula, with the objective of reaching a settlement acceptable to both sides by Easter 1979. It is estimated that about 900,000 passengers might travel on scheduled services between London and Spain and Portugal, their islands and Gibraltar during the period from April to September 1979.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I am not quite sure whether I understood my noble friend correctly. Is she aware that my information, which I believe to be correct, was that it was not now the Government policy that this transfer should take place on 1st April? Might I ask her whether I am to understand from that Answer that if agreement is not reached between British Airways, Iberia, and TAP that they should move, they will then be allowed to remain at Heathrow?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the position at the moment is that the British Government have invited the Spanish and Portuguese Government representatives to come to see for themselves what are the facilities we are offering at Gatwick, and to assure them that Gatwick is not a second-class station compared with Heathrow. I understand that the Governments have now accepted that invitation and within the next few weeks will be coming over to meet us. We have also indicated that we are prepared to be flexible. If it is not possible for these flights to be transferred by April, as we had hoped when we did our radical reappraisal of the whole question of the flights from Heathrow, then we are willing to be flexible and perhaps even postpone it for six months. But, as I pointed out in my original Answer, if that happens it will mean that there will still be considerable chaos at Heathrow because something like 900,000 passengers use the airlines which at this moment we are trying to change over to Gatwick.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, while agreeing with my noble friend on the numbers, might I ask her whether she could answer the point as to what the position of British Airways will be?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, it is still a matter for negotiation. The Government representatives are coming over within the next two or three weeks, and we would not want to make any firm suggestions as to what will be the attitude of any of the parties to the agreement until we have had these discussions and seen how flexible we can be about them and how far we can go to meet them.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the Spanish Government have already taken retaliatory action in this matter against British Caledonian Airways? What steps; are the Government taking to mitigate the effects of that action on British Caledonian?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, my understanding is that there was some action against British Caledonian operating the DC 10 aircraft through Madrid and Buenos Aires, but the permission to operate this service has now been reinstated.
§ Lord KILMARNOCKMy Lords, might I ask the Government whether they can give an assurance that there will be no repeat of the extreme discourtesy with which the Spanish national airlines were given notice to leave Heathrow? Further, do not the Government agree that this directly contravenes the intention they declared in paragraph 17 of the last White Paper on airports policy not to dictate to airlines, and to give the maximum scope for commercial decision?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I hope that the British Government and British Airways will always treat their colleagues from other countries with extreme courtesy. I hope that this will happen in the course of these negotiations.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, is it not inevitable that Gatwick will remain a second-class airport until such time as its rail communications with Victoria are substantially improved?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I do not accept that Gatwick is a second-class airport. The facilities at Gatwick are extremely good, and the chaos at Gatwick is nothing compared with the tremendous usage of Heathrow at the moment. It is all part of rationalisation to try to get more traffic through Gatwick. There are also plans afoot for improvements in the railway service. There are plans for improvement at Victoria, and for rebuilding the station at Gatwick with escalators for luggage and what-have-you.
Viscount MERSEYMy Lords, is not the Minister aware that during this last summer on several week-ends the conditions at Gatwick were completely chaotic? If you are going to put a lot more traffic there is not the situation going to be made much worse in the coming summer months?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I have no personal knowledge of any particularly chaotic conditions at Gatwick over the last few week-ends. The position is that Gatwick at the moment can cope with about twice the traffic that it is getting; and therefore it seems to us, bearing in mind the state of Heathrow at the present time, that it is sensible to 268 transfer and do some rationalisation of some of the airlines which can conveniently be allocated to Gatwick.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, do I not detect a flapping of the wings of the Maplin chickens coming home to roost?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I am flapping no wings, from Maplin chickens or others.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the Government are satisfied that the single runway operated at Gatwick is going to be sufficient to cope with this enormously increased volume of traffic?
§ Baroness STEDMANYes, my Lords, until the mid-1980s.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that it is very difficult to get into Gatwick Airport from the east? There used to be an entrance but for some reason it has been closed and is now reserved only for the staff. Is she aware that this is an enormous inconvenience to all the people who live in East Grinstead, Tunbridge Wells and many other towns in that direction?
§ Baroness STEDMANI was not aware of that particular problem, my Lords, but I shall certainly look into it.