§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any discussions are in progress between NATO countries and Warsaw Pact countries about the reduction of so-called "grey area weapons" in Europe, namely those weapons systems which are capable of delivering nuclear warheads from the Soviet Union to Western Europe and vice versa, but not from the Soviet Union to the United States, and vice versa.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, there are no such discussions at present.
§ Lord KENNETMy Lords, can my noble friend tell us whether or not the Memorandum on Salt III, which we understand is to be part of the Salt II Agreement, will touch these weapons and, 8 if so, whether or not what it contains has been fully cleared by the Americans with all their European allies?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, no, I cannot. I am sure that my noble friend refers to "grey area weapons" and systems. It is not exactly a publication, but a paper which, in the first instance, I understand is for American consideration. However, they, like us, are members of NATO and I am sure that no consideration of what will form part of the programme of SALT III as a result of SALT II will be finally decided without the fullest discussion and consultation within NATO by all members of NATO.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, although I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, about the importance of these "grey areas", will the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, also not agree that at the moment perhaps the best way of relaxing tension between East and West is by means of the talks now going on at Vienna? Will he not agree that the Soviet Union tabled some proposals in June which have not yet been answered by the NATO Powers, and that this does not seem to show a very high sense of priority on the part of the West?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, unaccustomed as I am to hearing from the noble Lord supplementaries which remind me of my noble friend Lord Brockway, I shall endeavour to put this, if I may, in perspective. It is true that there has been a movement in Vienna in the mutual force reduction talks, for which we are duly grateful. It is a move by the East towards the western position not least on data—on the assessment of various forms of forces before going on to the consideration of reductions. However, it was as a result of prolonged attempts by the West, as the noble Lord knows, before the East made these moves towards us. It is therefore reasonable that we should spend a few weeks, perhaps months, considering what has been put to us by the East, considering that previously what we put to them took between 2 and 3 years for them to consider.
As to the applicability of the "grey area" weapons, and systems too, I am 9 sure that the noble Lord was not suggesting that these should form part of the discussions in Vienna. We place great importance on the mutual force reduction talks in Vienna. These are directed to conventional reductions. It would seem that the best forum for the discussion of nuclear weapons and systems, including very probably "grey area" weapons and systems, would be in SALT'S forum.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, if I may follow my welcome colleague, may I ask the Minister this: do not the present terms of reference of SALT I refer only to inter-continental weapons? Are not the two most dangerous weapons today outside that definition the Soviet Union's intermediate range missile SS20 and the neutron bomb, which would presumably act in Europe? Therefore, should not the Vienna talks include a reference to such weapons?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am doubtful whether the mutual force reduction talks in Vienna, concerned as they are and specialised as they are in the very urgent area of conventional arms control and reduction, could, with the maximum of utility, be transferred to strategic limitation talks. However, we are now expecting the outcome of SALT II which presages, everybody hopes, a significant programme of reduction in SALT III. I think it would be somewhat premature to anticipate the programme of SALT III, and I would not venture to be categorical about: the exclusion of any nuclear-based weapon from such discussions. What I am emphasising is that such discussions belong very probably in the future, as they have in the past, to SALT rather than to any other forum.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the attitude of Romania at the present time, and in the recent past, is much more encouraging than all the talks, either "Salt" or "Sweet"?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, certainly the Romanians have, as always, asserted their independence, and quite properly. A good deal of talk has gone on in certain centres in Eastern Europe in which the Romanians have taken part, and the Romanian President 10 in particular. Our own attitude is that all sovereign States are entitled to their own independent external and internal policies, and the Romanians, we are delighted to see, have reasserted this right on their own behalf.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that common ceilings by both sides in Central Europe would lead to great reassurance by the West? While accepting, of course, that the Soviet Union have taken a long time to answer the West's proposal, would the noble Lord not agree that that does not excuse the West taking a long time if we are really serious about getting a settlement in Vienna?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we have been working hard to achieve the possibility of common ceilings. The imbalance between the ground forces of the two parts of Europe has proved a difficult obstacle to this. We are perhaps within sight of solving this question of imbalance; of whether you reduce to or achieve a common ceiling, or whether you adjust proportionately. If one adjusts proportionately to the strength of existing forces, as the Russians have so far insisted, then there is no prospect of a common ceiling. However, I agree that they have now accepted the principle of a common ceiling, something the West has been trying to get for more than six months; more like 2 or 3 years. On that basis, we are preparing an answer to their latest proposal, and I join with the noble Lord in saying that the sooner the West are ready with their reply the better.