§ 2.58 p.m.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I wonder whether I may ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House, on a matter of business, when it is intended that your Lordships should discuss the Road Traffic (Seat Belts) (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, to which the Government, the noble Lord and those who support the Government, attached such immediacy last week?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, there was, I think, some misunderstanding on Tuesday last. The noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition said at one point in his opening remarks that the order was due to be debated in another place in the course of this week. That was not then the case. The order was not featured in the Lord President's Business Statement of 20th July, and it has not been added to the business of the Commons since then. I understand that my noble friend Lord Melchett did not catch the assertion of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, but spotted it when he read the debate in the Official Report. If he had caught the remark at the time, he would have corrected it. I regret that it has not proved possible to find time for the order in another place, but if this House had approved the order that might have expedited its passage in another place.
§ Lord CARRINGTONWell, well, my Lords! It is lucky that it is the end of the term. I was looking at what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, on this order and he was very insistent. He said,
that it would be a matter of great regret if your Lordships' House…did not place itself alongside that large number of responsible bodies in Northern Ireland in supporting this measure".—[Official Report, 25/7/78: col. 820.]He added that if my Motion, which suggested a short adjournment, went through and then we discussed it again in this House, this would be impossible 1199 and the Government would not be able to put itself alongside that large number of responsible bodies.The noble Lord was supported by the noble Lord, Lord Parry, who made an impassioned and sincere appeal to your Lordships. He went so far as to say,
We must not waste even a week. In one week, 30 more people could be killed in road smashes by not wearing seat belts".—[Col. 815.]The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, went even further. He visualised, as I understand it, that we would have four debates on this subject before the Recess, because he said that, even if your Lordships rejected it, the order could be re-laid in another place, and there could be a debate in another place and another debate here. Apparently, at that time there was masses of time for all these debates which were to take place. It is extraordinary.The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, even went a little further. He accused me. He said that I was,
trying to ensure that your Lordships do not get a chance to say whether or not your Lordships approve of the order and in that way protecting, if anything, the image of your Lordships' House".—[Col. 822.]I find this extraordinarily confusing, or, rather, I do not find it at all confusing, because I know, and he knows, that the Government did not have the smallest intention of moving the order in another place.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, what they were doing was putting the order in front of your Lordships so that they could satisfy public opinion, or those in Northern Ireland who wished for it, and could say that they had tried: in their heart of hearts they were hoping that your Lordships would reject it so that there should be one more reason why Mr. Foot could say that the House of Lords should be abolished. My Lords, they have been rumbled! They have been wasting the time of your Lordships' House. Now those noble Lords opposite know it, we know it and the Press knows it.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I am amazed that the noble Lord is so sensitive about this. I can assure him that I do not 1200 believe that there is this conspiracy that he talks of. My right honourable friend in another place, the Lord President of the Council, who was responsible for this, has sought not to have it on the Order Paper. I think noble Lords know very well that at the end of term, virtually, it is very difficult. May I wish the noble Lord a happy holiday.