HL Deb 13 April 1978 vol 390 cc783-7

3.10 p.m.

Lord GEORGE-BROWN

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the full establishment complement and annual cost of the British Mission to the UN Agencies at Geneva.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the full establishment complement borne on the FCO Vote is 37 United Kingdom-based and 14 locally-engaged staff. Estimated annual running costs are £903,000.

Lord GEORGE-BROWN

My Lords, does not the Minister find it a little difficult to give us an Answer which, in fact, means that the establishment of the United Kingdom Mission to the UN in Geneva is notably higher than the establishment of the United Kingdom Mission to the headquarters of the UN in New York? Are we not rather lucky that the Think Tank missed this example, which would have supported their strictures rather better than the examples which they selected? May I ask the Minister if he will have an inquiry made as to whether we really need 51 people in Geneva—some of these agencies are tiny—at the cost of nearly £1 million a year?

Lord GORON WY-ROBERTS

My Lords, as to the comparatives between our Missions to Geneva and to New York, New York costs substantially more than Geneva, but I have not got the comparative figures on staff. I shall get them for the noble Lord. It is a fact that about 20 United Nations and other international organisations are based in Geneva and meet there regularly, and a great number of specialised committees, on which we take an active part, operate in Geneva. The international bodies include the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD);the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade; five United Nations' specialised agencies; the Economic and Social Council; the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, and others. It might assist the noble Lord and the House if, with the permission of the House, I were to append to my Answer today a list of the organisations and meetings to which I have referred.

Lord GEORGE-BROWN

My Lords, is the Minister aware—if the House will forgive me—that apart from the ILO, the WHO, and one or two of the other bodies he mentioned, the others are organisations that could be visited from here, or attended to by specialists attached to the Berne Embassy? Is he not aware that, on the face of it, much devoted as I am to him and his Department, it seems difficult to support 51 permanently in Geneva as against 42 permanently attached to the UN in New York? On the face of it, it looks odd.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, certainly I take note of what my noble friend says, especially in view of his own distinguished experience of the operations involved in this Question. I think, looking through this list which I think he and the House as a whole will he interested to study, he may on reflection agree that this is not an unduly large representation for all these purposes. It compares in fact with the numbers in Missions which our friends in Europe in the EEC find it necessary to provide in Geneva. But I repeat that I shall bear what he has said in mind.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to convey the thanks of those who go regularly to Geneva, particularly in connection with the Human Rights Committees of various kinds? I am sure the noble Lord is aware of the enormous work that is done in these Human Rights Committees. If there is not a voice of the United Kingdom there, the voice of the Soviet Union and the East European States is always to be heard. Nobody, I should have thought, and I am sure the noble Lord would agree, is supernumerary in that office in Geneva.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. The quality as well as the range of our representation in Geneva—and Geneva is Geneva, you might say another New York, from the days of the League of Nations—is very high indeed. I am glad to have this testimony from the noble Baroness. We have in fact to compare not only with our friends and allies in the Community but also with others, who are very assiduous and very numerous in their attendance at these meetings, from other parts of Europe.

Lord WIGG

My Lords, as the noble Lord is using Lord George-Brown's Question as an opportunity to supply the House with information, would he be good enough to add at the same time a list of costs and individuals in Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg, and anywhere else on the European continent?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, I am normally anxious to meet the wishes of my noble friend Lord Wigg. I hope that he will let me look at the full extent of his request, especially in relation to the phrase he tacked on at the end, "and anywhere else" in Europe. I shall see what can be done. I think I understand what the noble Lord wishes to have in the way of information. It is important information. It will assist him and the House to make the proper comparatives.

Lord SEGAL

My Lords, is it not a tremendous psychological advantage for any international organisation that it should be able to base its headquarters on neutral territory?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

Yes, my Lords; it varies from organisation to organisation. Those I have quoted certainly need to be represented on the spot. There are others, as the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, has reminded us, which could be serviced from London.

Following is the list referred to above by Lord Goronlly-Roberts:

"UN Specialised Agencies

"UN Offices

"Divisions of the United Nations Secretariat

"Non-UN Organisations