§ 2.50 p.m.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will institute an inquiry into the Lucas Aerospace plants at Liverpool and Bradford which are to be closed; and especially into the alternative proposals for the production of socially useful goods put forward by the shop stewards' committee.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I understand that, following the announcement by the Lucas Aerospace management 322 on 16th March of proposals to reorganise the company, discussions are now taking place between the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions and management, both on management's own proposals and on the shop stewards' committees' proposals. It would be sensible to await the outcome of these discussions.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, while welcoming the decision that this matter will be considered by the Confederation and particularly the influence which Her Majesty's Government have exerted to that end, may I ask the following question: Is it not the case that it was the Department of Industry itself which encouraged the shop stewards' combine to prepare this plan? My noble friend Lord Beswick, when he was in that Department, said that it was the most important piece of work from trade unionists that he had seen. In view of that, will Her Majesty's Government give the fullest support to these constructive proposals?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the Government have consistently welcomed the initiative of the shop stewards in thinking positively about the future of their company. The Government have urged on the company and the CSEU, at a number of meetings and in correspondence, that the corporate plan should be discussed. However, it is also stressed that this should take place through the proper channels—that is to say, through the Confederation.
§ Lord MACLEOD of FUINARYMy Lords, arising from the Government's Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, I should like to ask a residual question. I understand that in the financial year ending last July, Lucas Industries acknowledged a £56 million deferred tax concession by the Government. As part of the Government's industrial policy is the rejuvenation of industry—
Several noble Lords: Order!
§ Lord MACLEOD of FUINARYMy Lords, would I be in order to ask the Government how Lucas disposed of the deferred tax, or should I first approach Lucas Industries?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I was answering a Question on the proposals of the shop stewards' committee. The noble Lord has asked another question.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, am I right in thinking that the Government take the view that socially useful goods, whatever they are—I do not know—would be produced economically only if they had a ready sale at an appropriate price and would not, in fact, become a hidden subsidy from the taxpayer?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords, that is the view of the Government on the subject. However attractive some of the projects may be, they must be economically viable.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, the noble Lord referred to the "proper channels". Is it not the case that the shop stewards' combine represents the shop stewards in all the plants of Lucas Aerospace, and represents also the 15 trade unions? Is the noble Lord aware that those of us who have met its representatives are tremendously impressed not merely by their devotion but by their skill and their plan, which answers the points which were raised in the previous question?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is a major problem which must be discussed at the highest level. As far as the Government are concerned, it is the senior officials of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions with whom the Government must talk if we are to avoid chaos. Nevertheless, as I said in my original Answer, the CSEU is discussing the corporate plan that has been put forward by the shop stewards' committee.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, when the noble Lord says "economically viable", does he mean more or less economically viable than paying unemployment benefit?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another question.