HL Deb 06 April 1978 vol 390 cc241-9

3.23 p.m.

The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (Lord Kirkhill)

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Kirkhill.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]

Clause I agreed to.

Clause 2 [Apportionment of Housing Support Grants]:

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendment No. 1: Page 3, line 22, leave out ("that year") and insert ("the year in question.")

The noble Lord said

Before speaking to the first Amendment, I must apologise for the inconvenience caused to the Committee by the late appearance of these Government Amendments for today's Sitting. We have, of course, been affected by the printing difficulties to which my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal referred on Tuesday. I regret that on this occasion the Amendments were not tabled in sufficient time to allow for these difficulties. I particularly express my regrets to the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, in this regard. However, most of the Amendments before the Committee today are of a minor drafting nature, but I would understand if noble Lords might wish to return to the detail of any of these Amendments on Report stage.

This Amendment, No. I, improves the drafting of a subsection which the Government added to the Bill in another place to meet the wishes of the Opposition. The report accompanying a housing support grant order will show the estimated amount of grant payable to each authority for the year to which the order relates. There is nothing actually wrong with the present reference to "that order", but in terms of drafting style the Government feel that "the year in question" is slightly better. I beg to move.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

I thank the noble Lord the Minister for explaining this Amendment to us, and for his words of explanation and apology, which are gratefully received. As is customary for Opposition on these occasions, we make the strongest possible protest. We cannot be expected to deal with matters like this when they have only appeared today. As the noble Lord anticipated, we shall, of course, reserve the right, especially on the long Amendment, No. 9, to reconsider and come back on Report. With regard to this particular Amendment, as the noble Lord is obliging us with what was asked for in another place, I am duly grateful.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendment No. 2: Page 3, line 34, leave out ("local authorities' expenditure on housing.") and insert ("eligible expenditure.")

The noble Lord said

This is another small drafting change. It affects a provision which the Government added in another place, again to meet an undertaking which we gave there to the Opposition. So I am sure of a cordial welcome from the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton. I might just add that the expenditure in respect of which housing support grant is to be payable is described elsewhere in the Bill as "eligible expenditure". That term is used in Clause 1, Clause 2(3) and in Clause 3. For consistency it is desirable to use the same term in Clause 2(4). I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 [Repairs grant]:

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendment No. 3: Page 7, line 41, after (" 5(1),") insert ("(1A),").

The noble Lord said

Again this Amendment makes a small drafting correction. The provisions of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1974 which apply to improvement grants are also to apply to repairs grants, with certain exceptions. These exceptions are the provisions listed in the bracketed part of Clause 8(5). That list should also include Section 5(1A) of the 1974 Act, which is added by paragraph 13(a) of Schedule 2 to the present Bill. It is clear that Section 5(1A) does not apply to repair grants because it simply modifies the operation of Section 5(1), which is already listed as not applying to repairs grants. Clause 8(5) should, therefore, be amended to reflect that Section 5(1A) does not apply either. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 14 agreed to.

3.30 p.m.

Clause 15 [Reserve power to limit rents]:

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendment No. 4: Page 12, line 6, leave out (" increases ") and insert (" any increase (a)").

The noble Lord said

I beg to move Amendment No. 4, and in doing so I should like to speak to Amendment No. 5 as well because I think that it would be for the convenience of your Lordships for me to do so. These Amendments improve the drafting of the clause which empowers the Secretary of State to make orders limiting rent increases of local authority houses. Before coming to the Amendments themselves, I think that I should explain briefly to your Lordships the purpose of the clause.

The power to limit rents by order replaces the existing statutory limit which is fixed by the Housing Rents and Subsidies (Scotland) Act 1975 at a maximum of £39 per year for individual houses. This permanent statutory limit has proved inflexible in practice and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has asked for its removal. The new power to impose a limit for 12 months at a time avoids the rigidity of the existing limit, but still enables the Government, should this prove necessary, to step in to prevent excessive rent increases.

At present the clause would allow a limit to be applied to rent increases of individual houses. The Government undertook in the other place that the order-making power would, in addition, enable a limit to be applied, if necessary, to the average rent increases of authorities. These Amendments enable the second kind of limit to be applied. A limit on average rent increases would limit the overall increase in rent income which an authority would obtain from its housing stock, including rents from new houses which are not covered by the existing limit.

Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 add considerably to the flexibility of the new reserve power to limit rents. A limit on average increases could be adopted instead of, or in addition to, a limit on individual rent increases, or there could be an individual maximum without a limit of the average. It is sensible when designing a reserve power to make it as flexible as possible to cope with the range of contingencies which could arise. If a limit on increases in average rents were adopted the average would be carefully defined in the order itself.

Subsection (2) provides for an order to include supplementary and incidental provisions. The definition of the average would be one example of such provision. As I have said, the Amendments improve the drafting of the clause and enable it to be used in accordance with the undertakings which were given in another place. I therefore ask your Lordships to accept Amendment No. 4. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendment No. 5:

Page 12, line 7, at end insert— ("(b) in average income receivable from the standard rents of all houses or par: shares of houses,")

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 5. I have, of course, already remarked on its import.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 16, 17 and 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 [Citation, commencement and extent]:

3.33 p.m.

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendment No. 6: Page 13, line 21, leave out ("27 and 28") and insert ("28, 32 and 33").

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 6. This is purely a drafting correction. Those paragraphs of Schedule 2 which are consequential on the introduction of housing support grant should not come into effect until 1st April 1979. That is when the first housing support grant becomes payable. The clause presently identifies only two such paragraphs and gives them the numbers they had in an earlier print of the Bill. In fact, there are three such paragraphs and their correct numbers are 28, 32 and 33.

Paragraph 28 removes references in the 1972 Act to subsidies which are repealed from 1st April 1979 by Schedule 3. Paragraphs 32 and 33 alter Schedule 4 to the 1972 Act affecting the housing revenue account to take account of (a) the introduction of housing support grant and (b) the changes made by Clause 11 to the scope of the housing revenue account. Both changes have effect from the 1979-80 financial year. I beg to move.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 1 agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare): I must point out that the next three Amendments have been wrongly marshalled and Amendment No. 9 comes before Amendments Nos. 7 and 8.

3.34 p.m.

Schedule 2 [Minor and consequential amendments]:

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendment No. 9:

Page 16, line 47, at end insert—

"The Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1973 (c. 56)

9A. In section 27 (right to home loss payment where person displaced from dwelling)—

  1. (a) in subsection (1)—
    1. (i) after paragraph (d) there shall be inserted the following paragraph—
      • "(e) a requirement to remove from the building containing the dwelling in pursuance of section 13 of the Building (Scotland) Act 1959 (dangerous buildings) or any other enactment which requires the demolition of the building on account of its condition,";
    2. (ii) at the end of the subsection there shall be added the following paragraph—
      • "(v) where paragraph (e) above applies the authority requiring the removal.";
  2. (b) in subsection (3A)—
    1. (i) after the words "consequence of" there shall be inserted the word "(a)";
    2. (ii) after the word "dwelling" where it second occurs there shall be inserted the words "or; (b) a requirement to remove as mentioned in subsection (1)(e) above";
    3. (iii) at the end of the subsection there shall be added the following words "or removal as the case may be.";
  3. (c) at the end of subsection (9) there shall be added the following words "except that, where the displacement is in consequence of the circumstances referred to in subsection (1)(e) above, it applies if the date of displacement is on or after the coming into force of paragraph 9A of Schedule 2 to the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1978.".

9B. In section 34 (disturbance payments for persons without compensatable interests)—

  1. (a) in subsection (1)—
    1. (i) after paragraph (d) there shall be inserted the following paragraph —
      • "(e) a requirement to remove from a building on the land in pursuance of section 13 of the Building (Scotland) Act 1959 (dangerous buildings) or any other enactment which requires the demolition of the building on account of its condition,";
    2. (ii)at the end of the subsection there shall be added the following paragraph?
      • "(v) where paragraph (e) above applies, the authority requiring the removal.";
  2. (b) in subsection (3)—
    1. (i) for the words "or undertaking as is mentioned in paragraph (b)" there shall be substituted the words "undertaking or requirement to remove as is mentioned in paragraph (b) or (e)";
    2. (ii)for the words "or the undertaking was accepted" there shall be substituted "the undertaking was accepted or he was required to remove.";
  3. (c) in subsection (3A)—
    1. (i) after the words "consequence of" there shall be inserted the word "(a)";
      2. 247
    2. (ii)after the word "building" there shall be inserted the words "or; (a) a requirement to remove as mentioned in subsection (1)(e) above";
    3. (iii) at the end of the subsection there shall be added the following words "or removal as the case may be.";
  4. (d) at the end of subsection (9) there shall be added the following words "except that, where the displacement is in consequence of the circumstances referred to in subsection (1)(e) above, it applies if the date of displacement is on or after the coming into force of paragraph 9B of Schedule 2 to the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1978.".

9C. In section 36 (duty to re-house residential occupiers)—

  1. (a) in subsection (1) after paragraph (c) there shall be inserted the following paragraph—
  2. (b) in subsection (6)—
    1. (i) for the words "or undertaking as is mentioned in paragraph (b)" there shall be substituted "undertaking or requirement as is mentioned in paragraph (b) or (d)";
    2. (ii) for the words "or the undertaking was accepted" there shall be substituted "the undertaking was accepted or he was required to remove."."

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 9. I think it right that I should again apologise to your Lordships, without lingering on the apology, for the late submission of this Amendment. The purpose of the Amendment is to enable authorities to make home loss and disturbance payments to persons displaced from buildings which have been declared dangerous and, if need be, to rehouse them.

The Government undertook in another place that these changes would be made and, of course, I repeated that undertaking in your Lordships' House on Second Reading. In the area of home loss and disturbance payments, it would remove an anomaly which has given the Scottish Office concern for some time. The basic argument is straightforward. At present, if people are required to leave property because a demolition or closing order under the Housing Acts has been made by the local authority, they have an entitlement to such payments and rehousing. If the move is the result of the dangerous buildings procedure under the Buildings Act or comparable local Acts there is no such entitlement. In fairness we think that the provision should be extended to cover the latter category.

To say that the local authority acts in the interest of public safety in declaring a building dangerous is little comfort to the individual who may not agree with that assessment of the danger. In his eyes, and in terms of Statute, it is not the danger that requires him to move, but the authority's action. Nor does it comfort him to see someone in very similar circumstances get a home loss or disturbance payment simply because the local authority elected to secure his removal by a different procedure. Because of the existing statutory position, there is a tendency for local authorities to secure the clearance of dangerous buildings by making a demolition or closing order which allows for the payment to be made and rehousing to be provided, and then making a dangerous building order. As the difficulty is being overcome in this perfectly legal if rather ingenious use of Statute, any additional expenditure is likely to be very small and is unlikely to be more than, say, £100,000 in any one year.

The buildings most likely to be declared dangerous are four-storey tenements, the characteristic, one might almost say native form of dwelling, over much of industrial Scotland. If they become rickety, their height and mass make them a greater danger to the public and to their inhabitants than smaller buildings, and people may have to be ordered out at very short notice. That has become a real problem in Scotland. It is for those reasons that we have responded to the points raised in another place and have placed this Amendment before your Lordships. I beg to move.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

I thank the noble Lord the Minister for his very full explanation of this rather long clause. On the face of it it sounds very satisfactory, but as I said earlier, we must reserve our right to go through it with a close toothpick.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE

May I suggest "comb"!

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

I thank my noble and learned friend. I missed the amount that the Minister thought it was likely to cost in any one year. I wonder whether the noble Lord could refresh my mind?

Lord KIRKHILL

Perhaps I did not explain myself as clearly as I might. I am suggesting to the Committee that at the present moment local authorities are tending, by ingenious use of Statute, to declare certain buildings capable of demolition. This is an additional charge upon them, but because the Statute is being used in this manner at present it will cost an extra £100,000 per annum.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Lord KIRKHILL moved Amendments Nos. 7 and 8:

Page 20, line 20, leave out (" but ") Page 20, line 36, leave out (" but ").

The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 7 is purely a minor drafting Amendment, as indeed is Amendment No. 8. The word "but" in the existing drafting does not add anything to the meaning and we believe that the style is improved by omitting that word. I beg to move these Amendments together.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Schedule agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.