POLICE RECRUITMENT (Hansard, 5 April 1978)

§ Baroness SHARPLES
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE
(Lord Harris of Greenwich): My Lords, over the period April 1974 to the end of 1977 police forces in England and Wales made a net gain in strength of 7,500. of which 1,250 was in the Metropolitan Police. Forces in Scotland gained over 500 over the same period. For the first two months of 1978 there was anet gain in England and Wales of 150. Recruitment to individual forces is a matter for chief officers, who arrange local recruitment campaigns and other recruitment activities. We support their efforts through the national publicity campaign arrangements. Budget provision for 165 national publicity for 1978-79, subject to Parliamentary approval, has been increased to £823,000, which is over £200,000 more than in 1977–78.

§ Baroness SHARPLES
My Lords, that is rather a lot to digest, but I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Can he encourage the public to show the same sense of duty and responsibility that we expect and receive from the police, because in the year 1977 indictable crimes rose to nearly 2½ million and in the same period 100 police officers per week were leaving the force?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, we certainly hope to get the greatest possible degree of support from the public, and indeed the police are grateful for the amount of support they receive.

§ The Earl of KIMBERLEY
My Lords, can the Minister say whether he will consider altering the minimum height regulation and the maximum fitness regulation, because officers who are too short or who are not 100 per cent. fit could well man the telephone exchanges in the police stations, thereby letting the 100 per cent. fit and normal sized policemen go out on the beat?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, the answer is that jobs of the character referred to by the noble Earl are in most cases carried out by civilian employees and not by policeofficers. Our object is to ensure that the maximum number of police officers are on the beat and not tackling routine duties of the kind mentioned by the noble Earl.

Baroness VICKERS
My Lords, in view of the fact that the City of London stopped recruiting cadets in 1961 and is now starting to recruit again, does the Minister think this is a good idea which should be encouraged in other areas?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, we have made increased provision for the recruitment of cadets in virtually all police force areas of England and Wales. There is at the moment in train, in nearly all police areas, a recruitment campaign for police cadets.

The Marquess of ABERDEEN and TEMAIR
My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the restriction on the use of petrol by village constables is an aid to recruitment?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, these matters are determined by chief officers of police and not by the Home Office.

Lord INGLEWOOD
My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he can say something else about the recruiting figures, because he lumped the four years 1974 to 1977 together. I wonder how he can reconcile the optimistic view which he gave with the statements made last year by chief officers of police all over the country that they were losing more good men than they could replace by recruitment?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I have made a statement which is in fact wholly accurate in terms of the improvement in police recruitment during the period of office of the present Government. I think it is necessary to remind the House of this, given the fact that sometimes suggestions are made which imply that the police force is weaker than it was in 1974. The reverse is true.

§ Lord SEGAL
My Lords, will the noble Lord give the House an estimate of how far the police force still remains below the required strength?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, a number of police forces are nearly up to strength although there is a substantial deficiency in the Metropolitan Police district, which in my view is a worrying matter. We have had this problem for many years. As I have indicated, the situation has improved since 1974. There is still a substantial deficiency in London but in other police force areas the situation is a great deal better.

§ Lord ELTON
My Lords, further to the noble Lord's penultimate reply, can he say whether itis not the case that, while recruitment may be accelerating, so is the rate at which trained policemen leave the force and that the result is an accelerated turnover of trained personnel; 167 and what steps can be taken to arrest this rather disturbing pnenomenon?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. In my view, the wastage figure at the moment is quite unsatisfactory. It is only fair to say, however, that the wastage in 1977 was primarily of officers who had not completed two years' service. In fact, with the exception of people who had served between three and four years, the wastage situation of more experienced officers was better than it was in 1973.

Lord HAILS HAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
My Lords, having regard to the situation in London, to which the noble Lord has referred, and which is to some extent a special problem, what special steps do the Government propose to take in relation to this problem?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, this is one of the matters which are being looked at by the committee headed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Edmund-Davies, which is inquiring into the general question of police pay and looking at a number of issues of precisely this sort. Until we have the report of the noble and learned Lord I do not think it would be right to make any statement, but we shall be having that report within the next two months or so.

§ Lord REIGATE
My Lords, can the noble Lord say something about the recruitment of special constables?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, this is a matter for each chief officer of police, who sets his own establishment so far as the special constabulary is concerned, but if the noble Lord would like to table a Question I will see what I can do to assist him.

§ Lord ROBBINS
My Lords, the noble Lord used the perfectly legitimate phrase "up to strength". I wonder whether he could give the House a more precise definition of what that means?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, when I use the term" up to strength "I am referring to the establishment figures of each police force. Police establishments are decided as a result of 168 consultations between the police authority and Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary for the area concerned and are then finally determined by the Home Secretary. A number of police establishments have in fact been increased in the recent past.

§ Lord ROBBINS
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept this gloss on his definition, that in one sense at least the figures of the criteria of "up to strength" would be achieved if there were a fall in crime?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I very much hope that there will be a fall in crime. Unhappily there is no evidence that such a fall is taking place at the moment. As I have indicated, the figures I have referred to are police force establishments which are decidedupon between the police authority and the Home Office. A number of these establishments have been increased in the recent past either because of movements of the population or because ofthe general crime situation.

§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE
My Lords, has the Minister any indication of improvement in wastage and recruitment since a projected settlement on pay was reached with the police forces?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, as I have indicated, the committee presided over by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Edmund-Davies, will be reporting within the next two months or so. The Government are committed to accepting the findings of that committee, subjectonly to the phasing of the award, and one would assume that that would have some effect on the general recruitment situation of the police forces as a whole.

§ Lord ANNAN
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether that committee to which he hasreferred will be able to consider using some form of persuasion to get the Police Federation to permit differential rates of pay being paid to the Metropolitan Police Force and police forces which operate in other large conurbations where there are special problems in regard to crime?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, this is one of the matters which 169 will obviously be considered by the committee presided over by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Edmund-Davies. A number of representations have been received by them on this particular matter, but of course it is for the committee to decide what recommendations to make.

The Duke of ATHOLL
My Lords, can the noble Lord give any indication of the percentage of officers who resign the moment it is possible to do so without losing pension and similar rights?

§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH
My Lords, I think a detailed question of that sort requires more consideration than I can give at the moment. If the noble Duke will put down a Question, I will gladly answer it.