GIBRALTAR: AIR SPACE RESTRICTIONS (Hansard, 17 May 1977)

§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTER
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I regret that the Algeciras Prohibited Zone which applies to aircraft of all nationalities remains in force. It is of particular concern to Britain since it imposes limitations on the approach to landing and take-off manoeuvres of aircraft using Gibraltar. The matter has been discussed with the Spanish authorities on various occasions, but it has not up to now been possible to secure any relaxation.

§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTER
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware, however, that these restrictions substantially erode the margins of safety involved in the operation of aircraft into and out of Gibraltar? Now that the Spanish Government are seeking closer and better relations with the nations of Western Europe, might it not be expedient to point out to them that until they cease to interfere with access to a loyal British colony they can hardly hope for any improvement in relations with us?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I agree with the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question. Periodically that point is put very strongly to the Spanish Government by Her Majesty's Government. With regard to the safety question, 550 I understand that the zone does not constitute a serious additional safety hazard. Indeed, as the noble Lord will well remember, the Civil Aviation Authority has no record of any incident in which the safety of civil aircraft was put at risk by the presence of the zone.

§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTER
My Lords, if I may deal with the noble Lord's final point, is it not a fact that the manoeuvre, involving a very sharp turn just before landing or just after take-off, must, as I put it in my original Question, erode the margins of safety, inasmuch as there is a lower margin of safety upon which to rely if any other problem arises? If the noble Lord will refer to it, is not that the considered view of the Civil Aviation Authority?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I accept the way that the noble Lord now puts the question. At that point there is obviously an additional workload on the pilot making the right-hand turn, which would not be the case if the restricted zone did not exist. I accept that point, but I am advised that this is not a serious additional safety hazard.

§ Lord LEE of NEWTON
My Lords, now that the Spanish people are feeling their way gingerly towards democracy, would my noble friend agree that one of the ways in which they could re-establish themselves in the eyes of the Western World would be to cease the stupid victimisation of the Gibraltarians which they have had to endure for so many years?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I agree that we hope for increasing democratisation in Spain. We are putting to the Spanish Government the point of view that my noble friend expresses in relation to the Gibraltar situation.

§ Lord TREFGARNE
My Lords, is it not the case that Spain has recently applied for membership of the European Economic Community? Will he therefore represent this very unsatisfactory state of affairs to those who are responsible for the negotiations of that application? Would he also carry back to his right honourable friend the views of my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, which carry considerable 551 weight and which are causing very considerable concern among the airlines operating into Gibraltar?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I will certainly convey the points which the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, has made here this afternoon. On the question of a Spanish application for membership of the European Economic Community, Spain has not yet made such an application. Therefore, it would be premature to speculate on the issues which might arise if it did so. However, we should naturally have the interests of the Gibraltarians firmly in mind in any negotiations for Spanish entry into the EEC, should they come about.

§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE
My Lords, the Minister plays down the element of risk which is involved in the sharp turn during the approach to Gibraltar. May I ask him whether he has consulted the British Airline Pilots' Association who, I think, would not agree with the playing down by the Minister of the element of risk.

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I have taken the advice of the officials in my Department on this technical question of safety, and I have reported their advice to the House. I have no doubt that, in reaching their conclusions, they will have had consultations such as those to which the noble Lord refers.

§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE
My Lords, is it not better to consult the people who are doing the job rather than the officials in Whitehall?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I referred to my consultations with those who advise me. It is not for me to speak to the pilots.

Lord ORAM
My Lords, I said that I had no doubt that the officials in my Department had held those consultations.

Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE
My Lords, did not the noble Lord read what the British Airline Pilots' Association had to say and make a judgment, or is he just concerned with 552 taking the advice of his officials, who, so far as I can see from what the noble Lord has said, may not have had all the information?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, Ministers in successive Governments take advice from their officials. That is what officials are for, and that is what Ministers are for. I have faith that the officials who advise me have taken proper steps in giving their advice.

§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that one of the reasons for Parliamentary Questions is that the political chief will use them as a hook on which to make his own investigations to see how his officials arrive at the advice they give to him?

Lord ORAM
My Lords, during the time that I have been at this Dispatch Box I hope I have made it clear that I use my personal influence in quite a number of matters, but that does not go against the expressions of view that I gave about the position of a Minister in relation to his officials.