§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the criteria they are currently applying with regard to Questions on the Post Office in this House, in distinguishing whether such Questions are matters for themselves or for the Post Office; and whether these criteria reflect the Government's policy as outlined on Second Reading of the Post Office Bill in this House on 12th June 1969.
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, in answering Questions on the Post Office, the Government follow the rules and practices which govern Parliamentary 2 Questions about the affairs of all nationalised industries. These reflect recommendations by the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, on which the Government's policy towards Questions, as outlined on the Second Reading of the Post Office Bill in this House, was based.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him whether he does not agree that the statements which were made in this House on 12th June 1969, when the Post Office Bill was going through Parliament, indicate that the type of Questions which would not be answered are the very detailed ones, such as one on the collection of letters from some particular street; and would he not agree that such a major matter as the ending of the Sunday collections is a subject suitable for reply by a Minister in Parliament if Parliament is to monitor the workings of this Act?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords; in trying to get the rules defined as best I can, I would say that that matter comes within the functions exercised under the powers given by Parliament to the Minister, which are conferred upon the responsible Minister by the Post Office Act 1969.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether he would not further agree that it went against the entire spirit 3 of the Act to wind up the Sunday collections before the Carter Committee had reported?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I seem to remember saying not so long ago, unfortunately nationalised industries cannot wait upon committees. The Carter Committee will in fact be reporting, or may already have reported, to the Government, and your Lordships will be in a position to debate their recommendations in the not too distant future.
Lord HAWKEMy Lords, do Her Majesty's Government not think that time has proved that it was a very great mistake to stop the Post Office being a branch of the Civil Service with a Minister answerable in Parliament for every action they took?
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when I first entered another place we asked Questions freely about the village postmistress and about every day-to-day operation, usually with very considerable benefit because Members exercised that restraint which one would expect from the House of Commons, and it enabled them to call attention to grievances? Can the noble Lord say whether or not the repayment of £7 to telephone subscribers is part of the day-to-day business of the Post Office, and how many staff he has in the Ministry dealing with Post Office affairs and what they do? And will he bear in mind that the increasing tendency shown by Ministers in this House to try to restrict information (such as the price of cement, for example) is really calculated to undermine public confidence in the Government?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I could not agree with a number of the points that my noble friend has made. So far as the £7 is concerned, that is something which must be considered as part of the commercial policy of the Post Office.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, while I am not directly concerned with confidence or lack of confidence in the Government, there will never be any confidence or efficiency in the nationalised industries until both Houses of Parliament stop trying to interfere with the management of these industries?
§ Lord WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I have been tempted, but have resisted the temptation, to quote the noble Lord, Lord Butler, who made, I think, a definitive statement on this point in another place in 1960 when he said:
…may I say that we must adhere to the view that Ministers can answer Questions only on matters for which they have a recognised responsibility. Otherwise, they would inevitably find themselves encroaching upon the managerial functions entrusted to the nationalised boards." —(Official Report, Commons, 25/2/60; col. 577.)That was the view of Mr. Butler (as he was) then, and is the view of Her Majesty's Government now.