§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will initiate discussions through the International Labour Office on methods for countering the large-scale unemployment from which so many nations are now suffering.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the achievement of full employment and the prevention of unemployment have, since its foundation, been keystones of the charter of the International Labour Organisation. Discussions and practical programmes for alleviating unemployment are among its continuous activities and the United Kingdom Government, employers and workers play a full part in both. Examples are the ILO's World Employment Programme launched in 1969 and the World Employment Conference held last June. It is doubtful, however, whether any new initiative by Her Majesty's Government could achieve more in the ILO context than is already being actively pursued.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, but would he agree that in the present economic climate it is extremely doubtful whether any measures which any single national Government could take could possibly bring us back to full employment? Is he aware that only by examination of such matters as the length of the working week, retirement age, pension rates, and so on, can we hope to get full employment back again and that if one national Government 796 took a lead in that they would be in a position where they were not competitive with the rest of the manufacturing world?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, my noble friend is obviously concerned with the unemployment in the Western industrialised countries. The present problems of unemployment in those countries can be solved only by concerted action on the part of the international community. The Prime Minister has stressed this point repeatedly in his meetings with other international leaders, in particular in his recent meeting with President Carter and at the European Council meeting on 25th and 26th March. At the latter meeting it was agreed that a further tripartite conference should be held in the first half of this year to review progress on growth, inflation and employment. In the immediate future, at the Downing Street Conference the Prime Minister will again raise the question of the need for international action on unemployment.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, arising from that reply, may I ask the Minister whether it is not the case that the International Labour Office, representing Governments, employers and workers from all over the world, should be very much concerned in an international solution to this problem; and whether he is aware that we are a little disappointed that he seemed to indicate that he was satisfied with what is now being done?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, in answer to my noble friend, the main purpose and objective of the ILO is to establish aid in dealing with unemployment and economic matters in the developing countries. That is its primary objective and in this case the Western industrialised countries must necessarily take second place. It is a responsibility of international bodies and Governments to get together to solve these problems, not only on behalf of the Western industrialised countries but on behalf of other countries in the developing areas which have known poverty, hunger and unemployment for far too many years.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, will the Minister explain why he says that the Western countries must take second place? Surely the Minister would agree 797 that it is only wealthy industrial countries which have full employment which are able to support those countries suffering from underdevelopment, and it is only if we have wealth-creating activities in the Western countries that we are able to do as we should and to help other countries in the rest of the world.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I would not disagree with the noble Baroness so far as the contribution of the Western industrialised countries is concerned, but, as I stated in my reply to an earlier supplementary question, the primary objective of the ILO must be, and in point of fact is, dealing with the problems of the underdeveloped countries and in this the Western industrialised countries, in their contribution to the ILO and with their financial and other efforts of aid, will also assist. That is the point I made.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, although unemployment in this country is nearly as bad as it is in many other countries, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not also a fact that the number of people in employment in this country is as high as it has ever been?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I cannot answer that question offhand without having the relevant figures, but generally I would accept the position. That does not mean to say that we are unconcerned about the position, particularly of our young people and the training of young people in skilled industries which the country needs, and this must be our immediate objective in dealing with unemployment.
§ Lord LEE of NEWTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, while we all wish the Prime Minister success in his endeavours, we are not now playing for small stakes? Heavy unemployment and very high inflation do not sustain a democratic Constitution for very long.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, it is up to the Western industrialised countries and all those taking part in the Conference, and their Ministers and Governments, to show common sense and to get down to work together for their mutual salvation.
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that, while his general statement was excellent, there have been dreadful policy mistakes by Governments of this country and reversals of policy, particularly in regard to energy, where we ran down coal production and created unemployment; where we are now running it up, and where we were going to turn to atomic energy—
Several noble Lords: Order!
§ Lord HALEMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that there are also internal problems which have produced unemployment and on which a substantial measure of all-Party agreement in future planning—recalling, for example, the National Plan put forward by the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown—might be of use?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, all Governments make mistakes from time to time. The trouble is that people dwell on the mistakes and do not appreciate some of the valuable contributions Governments make.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, does not the Minister know that high unemployment is a much greater threat to a mixed economy, a democratic society, than it is to a Communist and authoritarian society?