§ 2.56 p.m.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to take quick 803 action as a result of the various reports from the nursing profession on their problems which are being received by the Royal Commission on the National Health Service.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, evidence submitted to the Royal Commission on the National Health Service is submitted to the Royal Commission and not to Her Majesty's Government. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services would not wish to initiate action solely on the basis of individual submissions until such time as all the evidence has been evaluated by the Royal Commission and the Royal Commission has reported. However, the nursing profession has direct access to my right honourable friend, and he is aware of some of their problems. On 3rd May—tomorrow—he will meet representatives of the Royal College of Nursing to discuss their recent report, The Effect of Financial Cutbacks in the NHS on Standards of Care.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that answer. Will he agree that over the years neither his Government nor indeed my own Party when it was in Government have taken sufficient notice of what has been required by the nursing profession? The recent report which has been submitted by the Royal College of Nursing, of which I have the honour to be a vice-president, and the report which was submitted by the Conservative Party both deal with matters which are not necessarily related to salaries but to administration. Does the noble Lord not agree that perhaps the administrative side could be dealt with, even if salary scales cannot be altered? It is most important that this very wise and important service should receive all the support it can in the requests that it makes. I am sure that the noble Lord will not disagree with me about that.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I am fully aware that the Royal College of Nursing criticised the reorganisation of the National Health Service, as does the women's Working Party of the Conservative Party—in fact, the words of that Working Party are rather straight to the point. I would remind 804 the noble Baroness that the Health Service is suffering from many problems due to the reorganisation. In another place I voted against the reorganisation but the then Conservative Government rushed it through.
§ Lord POPPLEWELLMy Lords, can my noble friend give any indication when the Royal Commission will issue its findings? There is widespread anxiety over the cumbersome and heavy administrative tasks being carried out in the Health Service which does not altogether tie up with the anxiety of those who are ill or dying. Only three weeks ago I heard a complaint about the administrative side of the York District Hospital. It is matters of this kind that need to be cleared up quickly.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, my right honourable friend is very anxious indeed that the Royal Commission should issue its report as soon as possible so that the Government can give it close study and reach a conclusion as quickly as possible, because, quite frankly, the National Health Service needs it.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that we cannot afford to wait until the Royal Commission has reported and the Government have had an opportunity to consider its recommendations before doing something about the top heavy, increasing administrative structure to which the noble Lord himself has just referred? Would not one answer to the present difficulties in the Health Service be to impose cash limits on the amount of expenditure on administrative staff?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, if the noble Lord were a member of an Area Health Authority he would be well aware that cash limits are being applied. In point of fact, there is enough material in the document which has been submitted to the Royal Commission and which my right honourable friend will discuss with the Royal College of Nursing tomorrow. Therefore, action can be taken on some of these recommendations ahead of the Royal Commission's findings.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, the noble Lord said that 805 he voted against the action taken by the Conservative Government. He was not the only one, because I did too.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I am very well aware of that. My then colleague, Dr. Tom Stuttaford, also did so on Third Reading. I salute both the noble Baroness and my colleague in having the courage of their convictions.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that recommendations of Royal Commissions very rarely give rise to economies in administration? Will he bear in mind that for the five years immediately following the introduction of the National Health Service by the late Aneurin Bevan the administrative costs were running at about 3 per cent. of the total, whereas now they are nearer 5 per cent? It may well be that there is a case for simplification.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the reorganisation has caused additional administrative expense, but administrative expense is being closely watched and the authorities have been asked to make a cut.